Chamber and committees

I appreciate your letting me in, cabinet secretary. What I am saying to you is that sport is not doing this well; in fact, it is doing it really badly. It has a history of doing it really badly, because it does not know how to apply those rules. Pauline McNeill has given you the example of Glasgow Life as a body that is not applying the Equality Act 2010 properly. That is happening across the board.

It is not a case of these things differing from sport to sport. If a sport requires power and speed, trans women have an advantage. If all those involved in sport—I am talking not just about national governing bodies, but teachers and amateur coaches like me—do not get absolute clarity from the Government about what is happening, women will be put not just at a disadvantage but in danger. I do not for the life of me understand why the Scottish Government does not understand that we need really clear guidance across the whole country.

Good morning. I thank the committee for allowing me to speak to my amendments to the bill. I want to say at the outset that, along with every other MSP I know in the Parliament, I am in full agreement that every person should be treated equally, irrespective of colour, creed, religion, sex or gender.

However, I do not think that you can create equality for one section of society by creating inequality in another section of society. What I am looking for—I am sure that this is what we all want—is everybody to have equal and fair access to all aspects of society, including sport. My amendments are on the impact on sport, because, as drafted, the bill’s impact on sport will be significant. These issues are already happening in sport, and the bill, as drafted, will accelerate that.

The committee deemed sport important enough to include it in its investigation, but it did not take any evidence from sportswomen. Instead, it decided that trans activists and men would suffice. That speaks to a global issue, because women participants are being warned not to speak out when confronted by the prospect of competing against trans women, which silences those who are most impacted by the issue.

Amendment 1 would insert into the bill a responsibility on the part of the Scottish Government to report on the impact on sport of the eventual act. Amendments in this group would require the Scottish Government or the registrar general to publish information, guidance or reports on the operation or impact of the provisions, once they are implemented.

There is precedent here, and the reason why we need that provision—and the reason why I am worried—is that sport is not set up to deal with this. We do not need to look too far into the past for an example of that. Caster Semenya was the Olympic 800m champion. She is intersex, and sport just did not know how to deal with it—and dealt with it appallingly. Caster Semenya herself was treated appallingly, and that still happens.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission has highlighted several areas in which the effect of the bill’s provisions on the operation of the protections from sex discrimination in the Equality Act 2010 is unclear. It has urged that further consideration be given to that before legislative change is made. There would be an additional requirement to publish information and guidance and to publish reports on the impact of the eventual act. Some of the examples that the EHRC gives relate to the trans community and also to sport. That data could usefully assist in ensuring the effective implementation of the act and monitoring its impact in practice. It recommends that these amendments be considered.

We should look at what currently happens in sport. All I am asking is that we register and understand what the impact would be on the participation of transgender people in sport. Sport already does that: we know how many people participate by age, by sex, and by disability—although, I have to say, I hate that categorisation, but, obviously, there are Paralympic categories. We need to ensure that we protect women, specifically, and trans people.

Sport is trying to look at how to deal with the issue. I notice that, for competitions, there are now three categories: men, women and non-binary. However, there is nowhere for those in the non-binary category to participate. They must still choose whether to compete as men or as women. Therefore, it is hugely important that we continue to do what sport has always done, which is to measure what is happening in the sport to understand the categories, and we need to do that in order to understand what the impact will be. As I said, sport itself is struggling to deal with this. I ask members to vote for amendment 1, for the protection of women and the trans community.

I move amendment 1.

Cabinet secretary—

Cabinet secretary, you indicated that you will not support my amendment 1. According to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, by removing some of the safeguards, you are having a significant impact on the operation of the Equality Act 2010 in Scotland.

Here is the reality: we cannot hide from the impact of the bill and not prepare guidance for sporting governing bodies, coaches and teachers. It is not a case of whether women will get injured, or when, because it is already happening.

I have seen that personally. As you know, I have three daughters, one of whom is a young teenager who participates in a combat sport. At one contest, standing opposite her was a trans woman bigger than me. That is the reality in Scotland right now. Thankfully, that trans woman recognised her advantage and restricted herself. That will not happen all the time. Women will get injured if we do not clarify what the rules and regulations are for sporting governing bodies, coaches and teachers.

I am afraid that that is factual, cabinet secretary, because that is happening around the world.

I want to develop that point with Anjum Klair. Chris Brodie brought up the issues around city centres, including that, with the rise in virtual and hybrid working, there is less footfall. Of course, that has had an immediate impact on many city-centre businesses that perhaps have not managed to adapt as quickly as they needed to. Has Covid put our city centres under pressure? What needs to happen there? My view is that, after Covid, many businesses expected to fall back to where they were before, but their workforces are resisting that and almost demanding that the hybrid working system continues.

Perhaps Anna Ritchie Allan would like to come in on that.

Convener, do I have time to ask another question?

It is for Liz Cameron. The issue is not just a lack of people or bodies on the ground; if people are retiring earlier, that is draining our resources and experience. Would you agree that Covid has exacerbated that issue and that we need to tackle it immediately?

I am glad that you have mentioned the older market. Covid has accelerated the gap between life expectancy and the age at which people leave the workforce. That gap seems to be growing.

Marek Zemanik, are we giving people who are, or are potentially, leaving the workplace early the encouragement, experience and opportunity to develop and remain in the workforce in a manner that suits them?

Have I got time for a very short question, convener?