Chamber and committees

The bill talks about the charter being reviewed every five years. Is that enough time, or should the period be longer? Indeed, should it be shorter?

I mean before the bill was published. Did COSLA engage with the Government before the bill was published?

Okay.

I am keen to pursue the matter of centralisation. To me, it is about creating standards. We just had a care home close in Dumfries and Galloway, and during the pandemic NHS teams had to go into a couple of care homes because there were issues related to infection control. It is about knowledge, skills and taking a standardised approach; for example, staff not wearing personal protective equipment unless they are engaging in patient care. For me, a standardised approach is about fair wages and the level of skills for a certain band in the local authority. No matter where a person is in Scotland, there should be a standardised approach for development of knowledge and skills. Is not that part of what would be centralised, with local delivery then being based on the standards that are set across the whole of Scotland?

Good morning, everybody. On the back of the human rights questions and aspects, chapter 3 of the bill, which I have in front of me, talks about the creation of a national care service charter. I am interested to hear your thoughts about what the charter should contain. For example, should we link it to the principles in chapter 1, which talk about promoting dignity and advancing equality and non-discrimination? That question goes first to Isla Davie, because she is looking right at me.

I am trying to get my head around what Dr Gulhane said about the roll-out of vaccines being a “disaster” in rural areas, because of the central approach. That was not my experience; I was a vaccinator in Dumfries and Galloway and the roll-out was fabulous.

With regard to the issue that everybody has raised about centralised versus local accountability, although ministers will have accountability, the delivery of care should happen locally, because different aspects affect rural, urban and island communities. Is that not what this bill needs to deliver?

This is mentioned in our papers, too, but I have in front of me the policy memorandum to the bill, which refers to the issue of housing that Eddie Fraser talked about earlier. It says that

“a fully integrated”

national care service

“would work closely with other services, such as housing, homelessness, education, the justice system, and the Scottish Prison Service to ensure everyone has seamless access to the support they need.”

I am hearing the concerns that are being expressed locally in Dumfries and Galloway, and I have met Shetland Islands Council leaders who have said to me, “Dinnae mess with this, because what we have in Shetland is working.”

Do we not want to learn from what is working in other places, and from the integration of health and social care and the better services that people have achieved there, and pick up on that in the co-design work to ensure that we engage everybody and bring in housing and everything else that I listed? Is that not the whole point of the bill? Is it not framework legislation that we can say okay to and then work together to tease out the detail?

I am thinking about the principles of fair work, employment and supporting people into career pathways and routes in a way that supports them as well as the people for whom they are providing care. How do we ensure, in the text of the bill, that those principles can be applied across the whole of Scotland?

I know that it is still early days, but I am thinking about, say, compensation for travel, support for education and aspects of employment—for example, whether someone is employed by one care provider or another. Those issues arise when we get down to the detail of how we support people to be carers, whether in a care home or through care at home. Does the bill have enough detail on that?

Thank you.

I have a final quick wee question. You said that it is obvious that the charter should contain the principles that are laid out. I quite like seeing them laid out right there in the bill. It is almost like a seamless transition from saying, “Okay, we talk about the principles and here is what the national care service is going to do”, to saying, “Now, here is what the charter will incorporate.” Is it reasonable to have the charter laid out in this framework bill, as we have just discussed?

We have looked at the issue of self-directed support, and I know that it is being reviewed. It seems to work really well in some places but not in others. You have highlighted the need to work with colleges, which is about co-working and co-engagement, and I know that, in both its Stranraer and Dumfries campuses, Dumfries and Galloway College is doing a great job in looking at future care providers. I just do not think that people know exactly what self-directed support is or means and how it can be implemented.