Chamber and committees

Good morning, panel. First, I ask witnesses to explain their views on the proposal in the bill to lower the age for a GRC from 18 to 16. I ask the Rev Karen Hendry to start. We have heard that the Church of Scotland agrees with discontinuing mandatory assessments but not with lowering the age from 18 to 16. May I have your views, please?

I want to develop that line of questioning. If, for example, the Government reform went through and all the suggestions and policy reforms were passed in the Parliament, would that make you feel uncomfortable about your position of removing the need for an assessment, given that you do not support the lowering of the age to 16? I accept the arguments that you have made. How would you feel about that? How would the church feel about that?

I will extend the question to the other witnesses. Let me ask Fraser Sutherland first.

It is strange how laws and regulations work. After all, you cannot get a credit card, place a bet, get a tattoo or drink alcohol until you are 18. The rules and regulations are strange for 16 to 18-year-olds.

Chris, can I bring you in here?

My last point is that, with the Gender Recognition Act 2004, it already felt as though there had been an impact on the collection and use of the data, because public bodies are either refusing to collect or not collecting data based on sex. I am wondering whether the bill will exacerbate that problem. Do you agree that it could become a problem as we move forward?

It is a difficult question. On whether we bring the age down to 16, people’s views and experiences are based on certain points in their life, so, whether it is a job or things such as savings and pensions, there is a lot riding on this. Do you think that it is important, in light of our discussion, that data should be collected on a sex basis, perhaps as well as a gender basis, as you were talking about, so that we can create good policy?

I want to pick up on what Mr Kerr said regarding the allocation of prison accommodation. I would like clarity on how part 13 of the Prisons and Young Offenders Institutions (Scotland) Rules 2011 works with your policy. The rules state:

“Female prisoners must not share the same accommodation as male prisoners.”

Your current policy states that prison accommodation

“should reflect the gender in which the person in custody is currently living.”

Does that breach the 2011 rules? How do they work together?

Why is it that you have a different view from that of so many senior quantitative social scientists, who feel that it is very important to collect clear data on sex?

For example, we just spoke with a witness regarding the differences between England and Wales and Scotland. In the Scottish census, which you mentioned, the meanings of sex are different, so if NRS is then working with other bodies across England and Wales, how does that square?

You referenced the census quite a lot, but only 86 per cent of people filled it in and there is concern that that data will not be able to be used in a quantitative manner. The census is a very difficult example to use in the current circumstances.

Everything is based on data. Criminal justice data, for example, is based on sex, not self-identification. I think that some people in public bodies would be concerned that there will be an impact. I do not really agree with what you said, because you started out by saying that you do use data. We use data here; we collected data and did a consultation, and 59 per cent of those who responded to that consultation disagreed with the principles of the bill. There are so many questions to be answered, such as how will the gender pay gap be measured? I am not sure that I feel reassured by your argument that we just need to base everything on self-identification.

Does people not saying that they have a GRC have an effect on the Scottish Prison Service? I know that we discussed the issue earlier, Mr Kerr, but I want to ask specifically about Kevin Guyan’s point that we do not really need to collect data on sex.

Are you saying that controlling foxes to protect ground-nesting birds such as curlews and lapwings is not part of a long-term project in the way that stoat control would be?