Chamber and committees

I agree absolutely with the FSB that we need a tax system that supports small businesses. However—and forgive me for being flippant—if we ask those who receive free money, “Is it a good idea that free money is given out?”, of course they will say yes. The Fraser of Allander Institute’s conclusions were concerning, given the amount of money involved.

Just to dig down a bit deeper on that, exactly what data is missing? Even before this report was put out, the tax framework document said:

“We will pursue a greater understanding of the drivers of devolved tax performance”.

What specific points of data are we lacking at the moment?

Thank you for that really interesting presentation, Callum. I was particularly interested in some of your comments about the potential of procurement and in your reference to the Bute house agreement, which underpins what the Government is currently doing.

With regard to conditionality in procurement for net zero purposes, the agreement commits to consulting with regard to

“businesses receiving grant or loan/equity funding of over £500k and for major contracts”

on a condition

“to reduce scope 1 and 2 greenhouse gas emissions at a level consistent with Scotland’s 2045”

targets, including a requirement to publish a carbon management plan and to submit a copy of it to whichever Government body is providing the funding.

As one of the folk who wrote that particular section of the agreement, I hope that, given your earlier comments, you can tell us whether there are certain areas that we have missed or on which we can build. If you were one of the people that we consulted on that condition that we might put on public procurement, what would you tell us could be done to make that more effective? At the moment, the commitment on those businesses is just to say that they will reduce emissions and to provide a plan in that respect. Could we ask for more?

That was really useful. When the formal consultation on that starts, I might come back to you in a separate capacity to ask you to put that in writing.

I was quite taken by your comment in the report, particularly given the urgency of the climate emergency, that reform of existing levers of taxation is perhaps more attractive than the creation of new ones. I am interested in your thoughts on the potential for reform in a couple of areas.

You may not have seen it, but last week the Fraser of Allander Institute published a report, which was commissioned by the Government, on the small business bonus scheme and its relative effectiveness. I am interested in any views that you have on how mechanisms such as the small business bonus scheme could be reformed. There are other areas where we have more latitude for reform, such as council tax. There is potential for significant reform or even replacement of the council tax in the current parliamentary session, or at least for starting that, because the council tax is complex and reform would take a while to implement.

Do you have any thoughts on the direction of travel in relation to the reform of either economic incentives such as the small business bonus scheme or local taxation such as the council tax?

That is useful. To be fair, the small business bonus scheme report came out only last week and it came out quite quietly, so I did not necessarily expect you to have noticed it.

I have a final question. You are relatively critical—in a way that I would agree with—of the forestry grant scheme, in that it focuses on the economic benefits of commercial forestry. That essentially means a monoculture—Sitka spruce et cetera—that certainly does not contribute to the restoration of biodiversity or tackle the nature emergency. What reform are you looking for in forestry grants? What would a successful version of the scheme look like if the overarching objective is to tackle the climate and nature emergencies?

Professor Heald, you mentioned the need for a UK-wide discussion around taxation, which I absolutely agree with. I accept that most national tax powers are reserved. We do not have the power to create new national taxes in Scotland, but we do have powers over income tax, land and buildings transaction tax, non-domestic rates and so on. We can also create any new local tax that we wish to—we can create new taxation powers for local government. Does the resource spending review offer an opportunity to have a discussion about taxation in Scotland? That would perhaps not be as comprehensive as what you are looking for UK-wide, but should we attempt to discuss taxation in Scotland in the context of devolved constraints?

I am in my second parliamentary session. Your point about 1991 valuations reminds me that that tax system is based on valuations from a time before I was born. I hope that that illustrates how tragically out of date the system is, because I am not nearly as young as I once was.

In essence, you are saying that it would be useful to have that discussion about tax, but my take on the first part of your answer is that it should not necessarily be part of, or simultaneous with, the spending review.

Does Emma Congreve have any thoughts on how we could take forward a discussion on taxation? I ask that in the context of the significant challenges that we will have to grapple with in the spending review. I find it very hard to imagine how we can close the gap, as such, purely through savings—purely through cuts—so it is essential to have a discussion around taxation, either simultaneously with or perhaps in the immediate aftermath of the spending review. Therefore, it is just a question of the scope of that discussion. I would be interested in your thoughts on that.

Thanks. I have just one final brief question. Professor, there is a line in your written submission that jumped out at me, which is that the resource spending review should be

“a planning ... not a bidding document.”

I understand that to essentially mean that—correct me if I am wrong—you are saying that the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Economy should ensure that all her Cabinet colleagues do not come back with a dozen different papers saying, “Here’s why my portfolio can’t be cut and needs more money”. If you were giving advice to the finance secretary on how to ensure that that does not happen, what would you say to her?

Thank you. That is all from me.

Do you think that the Government’s intention in bringing this legislation forward is to be able to make decisions wholesale at the granular level that you are talking about? My assumption about the intention here is that the partnership approach that we have pursued up to now would be the preference, but it cannot be guaranteed that every partner will be co-operative in the future. The universities themselves were a very good example of that level of co-operation with the Government, while some of the private student accommodation providers were not. Surely it would be better for the Government to have the ability to intervene at a granular level, with the intention of doing so not wholesale across the country, in every institution and every instance, but in those instances in which someone is not co-operating, whether it be with local public health teams, the local authority or the Scottish Government directly. We cannot guarantee that everyone will want to take a partnership approach next time, so surely the Government needs the ability to intervene at a granular level if and when necessary, even if it is regrettable that that is the case.