Chamber and committees

The witnesses are probably familiar with the evidence that the hope instead of handcuffs campaign submitted, specifically in relation to transportation providers for young people who are moving between secure accommodation, from elsewhere into secure accommodation or from secure accommodation to elsewhere. The campaign’s contention is that, although we are broadly on a path towards higher standards and better regulation of secure accommodation providers, there is a gap in relation to the transportation providers. It has provided evidence of inappropriate use of restraint, specifically handcuffs—hence the name of the campaign. There is the question of whether we need to wait for the bill to deal with that; there are other ways in which we can deal with it.

I am interested in your thoughts on the campaign’s proposals that relate to reporting mechanisms in particular. It proposes the mandatory reporting of incidents in which a transportation provider has had to restrain a child or young person. I would be interested in your thoughts on that campaign more generally and what it is asking for, and specifically on whom those reports should go to. Should they be submitted to the Care Inspectorate, for example, or directly to Government? Where would be the appropriate place for those reports to be collated?

That would be useful. I will follow up your point about the lack of capacity and the fact that, often, your officers have to provide the transportation. That should not be the case, but, given that it is at the moment, what reporting would you carry out if, for example, you ended up in a situation in which a young person who was being transported needed to be restrained in some way? What would the Police Scotland reporting mechanism for that be? Would you inform any partner organisations that you work with that that had taken place during transportation?

That is ideal. That is all from me for now, convener.

The advantage of that is that we could just go ahead and do it now.

Just on that point, Megan, if your position is that the guidance should be in legislation, do you believe that it should be in primary legislation such as the bill, or is there a way to do it through secondary legislation? Do you have a view on which legislative vehicle should be used?

On a not entirely unrelated note, I will move from consultants to secondments. I would be interested to hear whether you have come across any evidence in that space. I will take the rural and environment portfolios as an example. I am aware that organisations that represent agricultural business interests have had staff seconded into Scottish Government departments to assist with policy making in those areas. However, if you reduce things to a binary, the other side of those debates is the environmental non-governmental organisations. I cannot recall a single instance of a member of staff from an environmental NGO being seconded to those departments. In that particular scenario, that sometimes results in the agricultural business sector being broadly pretty happy with how the Government goes about its decision making and the environmental NGOs being broadly unhappy.

How much of the evidence that is out there and how many of the views that have been expressed about Government decision making are to do with process? How much of that is more representative of the responders’ agreement with the outcome? Are people saying that they do not like the Scottish Government’s policy making process because the outcome was not the one that they wanted?

I am interested in the point that you made at the start about the Welsh Government’s relatively systematic approach to external evidence gathering and the perception that the approach is perhaps not as systematic here. I am trying to reconcile that with some of the criticism that has been put the Scottish Government’s way about its externalising too much of the policy development process. The most recent high-profile example was the criticism that the national care service came under for being, to a significant extent, a production of KPMG, because the contract for that bit of policy formulation was awarded to KPMG.

Is it simultaneously true that the Scottish Government does not gather enough external evidence when it is doing internal policy formulation and that it outsources too much policy formulation, or is the picture a bit more muddled and there is not really a neat distinction because both can be true?

I appreciate that, and you do not need me to tell you that there is absolute logical consistency in what you say. The conclusion is still that the bill will result in better practice. However, co-ordinated support plans are the result of another bit of legislation, and those statutory requirements have not resulted in the change in practice that we want. I accept what you say, in that they are not exactly the same as transition plans. However, the premise of my question remains: why will legislation result in the change in practice that we are all looking for on transitions when other bits of legislation in education that were intended for exactly the same thing—not specifically intended to address transitions, but intended to force a change in practice—have not forced a change? What is different with the bill?

That is great. Thank you very much.

Pam, I will pick up on what you said about legislation driving policy and policy driving practice. At the core of what you propose is the premise that we need to mandate such action if we want transformational change. I am interested in the comparison between that and the experience with co-ordinated support plans, which, I think, both you and Bill Scott have mentioned. They are not the same thing but, if we are looking at the same space, they are currently the only kind of plan that has statutory underpinning, which should result in a compulsion on relevant authorities to improve support for a young person.

However, as Bill Scott pointed out, that does not happen for the 99.5 per cent of young people who do not have a co-ordinated support plan. Even for the 0.5 per cent who have one, we have plenty of examples in which, despite the fact that it is a statutory plan that should give them the ability to pursue recourse if they do not get support, it does not happen.

I am interested in your thoughts on why that statutory approach has not worked for CSPs and why, if it has not worked, the bill would provide a solution and result in a different outcome—the compulsion on authorities that you are looking for.