Chamber and committees

Group 14 relates to the restrictions on days of supply of fireworks, and group 15 relates to the restrictions on days of use of fireworks. Some of the amendments are consequentials and relate to the main theme of this group but, essentially, they seek to remove the Government’s proposed restrictions on days when fireworks may be supplied.

There was a wide-ranging discussion at stage 1 about the arbitrary nature of when fireworks can be sold and by whom. There is a spectrum of views on that. There are people who want to ban the sale of fireworks altogether, for lots of reasons, and we have spoken about those. There are people who believe that restricting the sale and supply of fireworks altogether is not something that they could support. To be fair, the Government has been trying to find a middle ground throughout the process, but its proposal raises some problems.

When the House of Commons Petitions Committee reviewed the issue, one of its conclusions, notably, was that greater restrictions and controls on the sale of fireworks would not be appropriate because of the very real risk of creating a black market and making matters worse, not better. When the BFA gave evidence to this committee, it claimed that the measures will

“basically ... encourage people to source product from unlicensed or unauthorised dealers.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 23 March 2022; c 14.]

The Government’s proposal in effect shuts down those in the industry who work all year round. As we identified and spoke about at great length in our stage 1 report, two types of retailers are involved: those who are specialist fireworks retailers who sell all year round, and other types of physical retailers who sell occasionally or at different times of the year, for whom the bill may be less of a problem. The committee has to accept that, by passing the bill, we will be shutting down that cottage industry, whether we like it or not.

The industry has told us that it does not want to have to come back in a couple of years and say, “We told you so—we told you about the unintended consequences of people purchasing dangerous unregulated products from unregulated and unlicensed people.”

Questions remain over the sale of fireworks by larger retailers. I have to say on the record that none of those retailers spoke to us, which was unhelpful. Unfortunately, we do not know whether they will even bother to stock fireworks if they are limited to selling them on certain days of the year. We do not know how they will approach the issue from a staffing point of view, what training will be provided on the licensing scheme, and whether it is even worth the hassle for them. If they choose not to stock fireworks, we do not know what effect that will have on the potential for stockpiling or on the black market, whether that is online illicit sales or the scenario of a white van man selling fireworks in communities where there is problematic behaviour. We do not know whether retailers will be able or willing to store hundreds of kilograms of fireworks if they can sell only on certain days.

We do not have the answer to any of those questions, either because retailers have not been consulted or because they have been consulted and have not been forthcoming with their views. There is an explicit point of view that the proposals may lead to more injuries, which defeats the point of the bill. In effect, we are taking the ability to purchase fireworks on nearly 365 days a year and condensing that into 37 days.

With my amendments in the group, I am not saying that there should not be restrictions on the supply of fireworks, but I am asking the Government to take a step back and revisit its consultation process with stakeholders on the issue, have a proper think about the dates and make a better case as to why it has chosen particular dates. I am asking the Government to answer some of those unanswered questions and consult the people who have told us that they have not been consulted properly or that the consultation process that they have been through was “inadequate”—that is their word, not mine. The Government can then come back to the Parliament with further proposals for regulations to restrict the supply.

Before anyone claims otherwise, I point out that I am not seeking to simply remove the restriction on supply and keep the status quo, in which there is supply all year round. I understand that that would defeat the point of the bill, but that is not what I am trying to achieve. Under amendment 97, ministers would have to consult and then lay draft regulations that we could debate and discuss, and on which we could hear from stakeholders. I have suggested some stakeholders but, if members do not like that list, it is no problem to change it at stage 3. More importantly, under proposed new section 22 (5D)(c), which amendment 97 would insert, when laying the regulations, the Government would have to explain how they will improve public safety.

That is at the core of all this—we all want to improve public safety. However, there are misgivings that the proposed restricted dates in the bill will achieve the opposite. I do not know what the future holds, but I like to think that we will pass legislation that improves public safety and that does not have unintended consequences.

I am keen to hear what members and the minister have to say about my amendments. The same goes for my amendments in the next group, which is on restrictions on use, although I will make a slightly different argument on that.

I move amendment 93.

I thank the minister for the offer. I am happy to kick off the morning on a consensual note and agree to work with the minister and her team ahead of stage 3 on suitable wording for an amendment that I would be happy to move, or support, if the minister lodges it. On that basis, I seek to withdraw amendment 84.

Amendment 84, by agreement, withdrawn.

Section 14 agreed to.

Section 15—False statements

Amendment 85 not moved.

Amendment 86 moved—[Russell Findlay].

I will in a second.

The dates in the bill are permitted days on which fireworks can be used, which will not solve the problem. If somebody hears fireworks on a permitted day, they will not know whether the use is legal or illegal because they will only hear and see the fireworks. They will still be flooding our inboxes and complaining to the police.

Yes, in a moment.

Again, I am pointing to a pattern of inevitable confusion among the wider public and potential challenges to the dates. Imposing restrictive dates in the way that is being proposed may have unintended consequences, which we will not know about until they happen.

Those are only a couple of our concerns. I am happy to give way.

I have no idea how one disposes of fireworks; I am sure that we will need to ensure that there is a strong education programme for the wider public in that regard.

Equally, there are issues around whether someone is willing or able to stockpile, and how and where they do that. Most people do not do it because they do not have to. However, if we suddenly impose restrictions for use on certain dates, and a householder has, for whatever reason, maxed out their opportunity to use their fireworks, they face a conundrum as a licence holder. Do they want to do the right thing, and store the fireworks in order to use them on the next permitted date? That may not be when they originally wanted to use them, but they might use them anyway, as they have probably spent a lot of money on them.

Alternatively, are they able to return the fireworks to the store or dispose of them? If they have bought the fireworks online, are they going to phone a specialist courier company to come and get them? Those are valid questions, and—I think—sensible ones at that, to which we do not know the answer.

I see that the minister wants to intervene.

I will in a second.

All that I am asking the Government to do is to ensure that restrictions on sale are not put in place until a clear package, which the Parliament has had a chance to consider, is in place. At that point, of course, the restrictions can be put in place.

There are two simple solutions. The first is that the member presses her amendment, the committee votes on it and, if it is agreed to, the Government can tidy it up at stage 3 if it is not competent. Alternatively, the minister can give the member a commitment to take the issue away, consider whether community groups or individuals should be able to make representations to local authorities on the designation of firework control zones, and bring back an alternative proposal, in which case the member will not need to press amendment 9. The amendment raises an important point.

If it is an offence for someone to purchase, possess or use fireworks without a licence unless they are explicitly exempt under the list in schedule 1, in what scenario does the minister foresee someone justifiably purchasing, possessing or using fireworks without a licence?

I thank the member for doing so. I do not disagree with his premise, but what is clear from feedback that we have taken directly from communities that have been most blighted by the misuse of fireworks is the lack of correlation between what they are reporting and what they are seeing at the other end. It is that inaction that is causing most frustration. It is hard to say whether new legislation will fix that or simply add to the legislative environment and landscape—I hope not. I am not saying that we should not add further legislation in the way that the Government is seeking—all that I am asking for is a review of the current landscape, because we do not have all the data available to us. It would be nice to know the correlation between the recording of such incidents and where those cases go in the justice system and to find out why they are not proceeding.

Last year, for example, there were 974 fireworks-related complaints to the police—in other words, nearly 1,000. However, only 29 charges were brought, and there were zero convictions. Pauline McNeill talked about public confidence in the system. How can the public have confidence in a system in which 1,000 offences directly related to fireworks are reported and nobody—nobody—is successfully prosecuted? How will this bill change that situation?

All that I am asking is for the Government to take a step back and look at whether the existing laws are being used. I cannot for the life of me work out why the Government, with all the resources available to it, would not want to do so.

This small group contains two of my amendments and amendment 46 in the name of Katy Clark, who will speak to that one.

Amendment 60 seeks to clarify who will be exempt from holding a licence. It relates to the main statement under section 4(1) of the bill that it will be

“an offence for a person ... to purchase, acquire, possess or use a firework ... without having a fireworks licence”,

which is the very essence of the Government’s proposal.

The term “without reasonable excuse” opens up a bit of a legal minefield of excuse making and lack of clarity. In fact, that wording is a defence solicitor’s dream. It is too vague, and my approach is to create clear blue water between those who must hold a licence and those who are explicitly exempt.

Exemptions are detailed in schedule 1 to the bill. I appreciate that “without reasonable excuse” is a commonly used legal term, but in the spirit of being crystal clear in the bill about who is and who is not required to hold a licence, I believe that reference to the exemption schedule—which could also be amended—is a better way of making clear who does not require a licence. If the Government can convince me otherwise, I am happy to listen to what the minister has to say.

Amendment 61 says that a person who holds a licence must present it at the point of purchase of fireworks. Specifically, it says that a person who holds a fireworks licence must be present at the point of purchase in all instances—both in person and online—irrespective of the location of the supplier.

I will speak about why the amendment is worded in that way; I apologise if it is not worded competently, but that is down to the timescale for drafting. The amendment seeks to shift the onus of responsibility for producing a licence to the licence holder. It means that at the point of purchase, the licence holder must present their licence to obtain fireworks. In the event of an in-person purchase in a retail store, that would be a physical process, and when making an online purchase, the licence holder would have to provide evidence that they hold a licence.

As the bill is currently drafted, I believe that there is a loophole that means that online retailers will not have to check for a licence. In fact, there may be a debate to be had about whether the Scottish Government or the Parliament can legislate to mandate retailers to check for the possession of such a licence—more so if that retailer is not based in Scotland or the United Kingdom.

Amendment 61 is short, but effective, given that shifting the onus to the purchaser is the only way to competently make a purchase. However, it does not address the wider issue of how on earth online firework sellers will verify that a Scotland-based customer or resident holds a licence, or whether they have had one that has subsequently been revoked. We struggled to draft an amendment that did that. Any online retailer could feasibly sell to any address registered in the UK after the bill passes, but it is unclear how the legislation would be dealt with by retailers.

If the Government considers that there is a better solution to this problem, I would be keen to hear the minister’s thoughts. If she is not minded to support my amendment, she must still outline why the bill contains no requirement to present a licence—physically or digitally—at the point of purchase, and how on earth the online sale of fireworks by suppliers outside Scotland or the UK when selling to Scottish consumers will be policed. That is not addressed in the bill and those questions remain unanswered.

I do not think that the issue can be kicked into the long grass of secondary legislation, because it is a key component in ensuring that we limit any opportunity for a black market, which is a very real risk—as so many of us have highlighted. Amendment 61 is meant to address that issue. If there is a better way to do that, I will be happy to withdraw my amendment and work with the Government to bring it back at stage 3.

I am keen to hear Ms Clark speak to amendment 46, which is slight in nature—it is a four-word amendment—but would have a big effect. It is quite unclear what she seeks to achieve with the amendment and, on a technical level, how the rest of the bill would be affected if it was agreed to. I have some concerns about the brevity of Ms Clark’s amendment and the nature of what it seeks to do. I will let her speak to that.

I move amendment 60.