Chamber and committees

It is a difficult issue, because we do not have different institutions for different types of offences or different types of people. In that respect, it is very much a one-size-fits-all environment. This goes back to my previous question. If custody has to be the disposal that is used, could we make those places better, or could we use other places? Have you done any research into other national models, for example? Do you have any experiences that you want to share with us?

In the committee, we have talked a lot about the differences between those who are held on remand and those who are convicted. I appreciate that there is a legal difference between the two states but, clearly, they come with differing approaches as to what people have access to, what their rights are and what can or cannot be asked of them or offered to them. Does that need to change, too?

It does. Thank you very much.

Gerald Michie, you are in that environment day in, day out, and you will have a lot of experience of the types of people who come in to be under your care. You may have heard the feedback from our previous witness about what she thought the different cohorts of people were. From your experience, do you believe that a young offenders institution as an environment is the right place for the types of people who are being placed into custody there, or would you like to be able to do more in certain areas, but you are perhaps restricted by people’s legal status, for example?

How do you define “children”?

Which part of the establishment will they transfer from?

The problem is that, if the bill were passed tomorrow, we could not move those people to secure accommodation because there is no capacity. Capacity is being used up by people from authorities in other parts of the UK that are paying more. There would need to be a pretty substantial change to secure accommodation in order to accommodate that direction of travel.

I guess that I am trying to work out what the role of our young offenders institutions is, because there seems to be opposition at both ends of the argument. Some think that people who are old enough to be in adult prisons can be in YOIs but that people at the lower end of the age spectrum absolutely should not be in them at all. It is difficult to see what their place in the justice system is.

To present a scenario, is it appropriate for a 24-year-old adult male who has committed a serious sexual assault or rape to be held in a young offenders institution? Equally, is it appropriate for an 18-year-old who has committed the same offence, and is of sound mind, to be held in secure accommodation? Are you saying that it would be okay as long as they are separate from children—or from other younger children? I guess that there is a moral and philosophical question about how we treat people. Everyone is an individual, and where they are in the system is unique. I am trying to get my head round how we can use arbitrary rules to deal with quite complex individual cases.

Good morning. I thank Linda Allan for coming and for sharing her experience. It has been a horrific couple of years for you and your family, and it is brave of you to share that with the committee, because that is important. I am sorry to hear that the investigation is on-going.

I am trying to get my head round this issue. It is important that we take as wide a range of views as we can on the Government’s proposed legislation. There are three places that someone can be sent to, either on remand or when they have been sentenced to be held in custody: secure accommodation, young offenders institutions or adult prisons. I am trying to see which is the right place for certain cohorts of people.

At the moment, the decision seems to be based on an arbitrary age cut-off. The bill proposes that, up to 19 years of age—effectively, while they are still 18—someone can only be held in secure accommodation, with an expectation that they would probably then move to a young offenders institution, depending on the length of their sentence. It would be unusual for that to be so long but, in the unlikely event that it was longer than that, they would then be moved to an adult prison at some point—perhaps at the age of 25 plus.

Are you comfortable with that set-up, and does it work? Is age the factor that should be taken into account, or are there other factors? How should the Government create rules to know which settings are the right ones for the people who are put into them? I am a bit confused by some of the evidence that I have heard so far.

Perhaps Kate Wallace could start, then I will come to Ms Allan.

There has been quite a lot of criticism. It is not directed at individuals; we know that all prison officers are under a huge amount of pressure and stress. Nonetheless, there are some stark statistics on suicides among young people in custody. Do you have a view on that? Are they preventable or inevitable? Do you think that the situation could be improved but that that would require a huge amount of further investment and resource?

I appreciate that there are efforts in that respect. I have a final question, which is for Wendy Sinclair-Gieben.