Chamber and committees

My next question is on that—do not worry.

That sounds good. Thank you.

My goodness, that sounds like a grim situation.

I have heard you give evidence in previous years, and some of your warnings on the ever-increasing numbers have been borne out. However, I guess that the numbers do not paint the entire picture. Is the issue simply that the nature of the prisoners has changed over the years? We have heard anecdotal evidence that increases in serious organised crime, which you mentioned, serious sexual offences and serious violent behaviours have led to higher prisoner numbers. Of course, we also have a substantial remand population, many of whom have been there way beyond the statutory limits, because we voted to get rid of those limits in many cases.

Is there proportionality in the system? Are too many people being put in prison for the wrong reasons, or is the issue simply that the nature of crime and its prosecution are changing and therefore people have to be in prison, but we just do not have enough spaces for them?

May I ask about the situation with HMP Greenock? It is an area of local interest for me, but you mentioned it in your opening statement, too, stating that the prison should be bulldozed. It is currently inhabited by a substantial number of prisoners—both those on remand and those being held for longer terms—and has a substantial number of staff. We would have nowhere to put those people if we did bulldoze it, so they are stuck there, presumably, with no plans for replacement. What should happen there?

Right. So we will leave it as is and hope and pray that there is a replacement—

I just want to direct the conversation back to where we started—that is, the situation going forward. As you will be aware, the head of the Scottish Prison Service, Teresa Medhurst, was on television recently, and, referring to prisoners, she was quoted as saying:

“enough is enough ... We cannot take any more.”

Given that we are, as I think it is widely acknowledged, already over capacity, if the trend continues and prisoner numbers rise, the big question is what happens then. I guess that my question, therefore, is this: what do we do when there is simply no more space?

Presumably there are three things that we can do. First, we direct the judiciary not to send people to prison; secondly, we release people who are currently in prison early; and thirdly—and this is something that I suspect is being actively considered—we house the additional influx of people in temporary accommodation. Given your lengthy and wide-ranging experience of prisons, what would be the best option for policy makers?

It seems that we in Scotland have been rather slow to deal with the evolution of criminology in things such as sobriety tagging and GPS technology. Do you understand that an element of society, including some of the victims organisations that often deal with legislators, feels some unease at some of those suggestions? For example, there is unease about emergency legislation that releases people from prison early, because it feels as though justice has not been served. There is also unease about directing the judiciary as to what it should and should not do and who can and cannot go to prison. How should legislators balance that unease among victims and the wider public, who might fear for their safety, with the perilous situation in prisons? Is it at tipping point?

I can tell.

Of course, much of that comes from the top down. In the first section of your briefing, you immediately identify—I do not want to put words in your mouth—a lack of political leadership overseeing much of the strategy as being an issue. You specifically identify that the

“Economic Leadership Group has not yet been established.”

The strategy was published two years ago. Are you surprised about that?