Chamber and committees

I understand. Thank you. The key point, it feels to me—I appreciate that we will go to debate in a minute—is that the fines raised do not come back to the DRS specifically, perhaps to help that scheme or to help producers or whatever.

Who is the arbiter of whether a breach of the order merits a criminal prosecution or requires a civil prosecution? “Prosecution” is the wrong word, but you know what I mean. Will SEPA be the arbiter of that?

Will the minister take an intervention?

I agree with you: it is unhelpful or unfortunate, perhaps, that we have both of these orders together. This is the intervention that I was going to put to Jackie Dunbar: how do you deal with the convener’s point about SEPA and resourcing and becoming judge and jury? What is your response to the convener’s challenge?

I will briefly follow up on that question. David Hibbert talked about unbundling and tendering. Do you have any thoughts on the structure of how we procure and deliver ferry services in Scotland, particularly in your jurisdiction? Do you have any views on the Transport Scotland-CMAL circle—or, in this case, matrix? Is there a better way in which that could be structured, or is that structure the right one?

Moraig Lyall, I will throw you the same question but add to it that the committee has heard about the possibility of—I cannot remember exactly how it was described—the operator of the service bringing in its own vessels. Do you have any thoughts on what David has just provided?

This is the final question from me at this stage, convener. The SSI—the order—amends the substantive DRS regulations. I can find nothing in the order about what the penalty will be. In the substantive DRS regulations, the penalty is expressed as being a penalty

“not exceeding the statutory maximum”,

but it does not go on to particularise that statutory maximum. Can you help the committee to understand what the penalty is that cannot be exceeded?

I understand. Thank you.

Forgive me, Charles. First of all, minister, did you just say, “I don’t know”, when I asked you what happens to the fines, just to be clear?

Interesting.

Charles, you said that it goes into the consolidated fund. Can you explain for the committee what that means in terms of where it has gone and who gets to use it, please?

I would be grateful.