Chamber and committees

I understand. I am very grateful.

I am grateful for that—I will come to the time bar issue in a moment.

There was a second part to my question. When this committee is looking at the budget that comes out, are you able to give us an idea of how much will be required with regard to the High Courts and the extra trial court?

I am grateful for that.

John Logue, I move to your submission. You heard Malcolm Graham talking just now about the Covid time bar legislation. You mention that specifically in your submission, in which you say:

“The Scottish Parliament has approved an extension of the date for removal of the pandemic extended time bar legislation to November 2025.”

You go on to say:

“The model chosen by Parliament to end the extended time-bars represents a very significant challenge for the criminal justice system with a high risk of disruption to the operation of the courts and increases in the prison remand population.”

For the benefit of the committee, can you explain precisely what you mean by “significant challenge” and “high risk of disruption”?

Given that, as you have pointed out elsewhere, the time bar will not be extended further, what do you need to see in the budget to ensure that the disruption from the backlog does not continue to be felt in November 2025?

John Logue, do you have any thoughts on that?

Good morning. I will perhaps direct this question to Gerry O’Donnell, because it is a finance question.

In her opening remarks, Teresa Medhurst mentioned that modelling was not available until six months prior to any particular point in time. If it is not available until that point, how can you realistically be expected to budget for what is coming up? You might not know the answer to this, but how much of a challenge do you think that it would be for the Scottish Government to give you more lead time?

Very good. I have a short thing to ask about. You mentioned employee safety, and rightly so. I am led to believe that recent statistics suggest that there has been a rise in the number of attacks on prison officers in the estate. Do you have any detail on why that might be happening? Is it is due to the overcrowding that we have explored, the complex needs that Fulton MacGregor touched on, or the increased number of sex offenders and organised crime gangs in your estate, as is set out in your submission? Crucially, what funding do you need in the budget that would allow you to address employee safety properly?

I remind the committee and the witnesses that I am a practising solicitor and that I appear in the employment tribunals every so often.

Malcolm Graham, in October, the SCTS published the latest modelling for criminal business in the High Court and sheriff courts, which you referred to earlier. There is a suggestion that an additional trial court might be required in the High Court to achieve recovery by 2026. Are the resources for that available? If not, how much is needed for that in this budget?

I think that people will understand that your staff and the whole system will be doing its absolute best, given that hard stop in November 2025. For the benefit of those who are following this session, will you make it clear to them what the implications are if the backlog is not addressed in time and the time bar reverts in November 2025? I have certainly had it expressed to me that in some of the most serious cases—because I understand that solemn cases will be particularly impacted—it is possible that some accused would not be held or, indeed, tried. Is there a risk that some individuals accused of the most serious crimes that we heard about earlier—murder, rape—could walk free?

My question follows on very well from Fulton MacGregor’s question. Malcolm Graham talked earlier about capacity planning, and he has just talked about collaboration throughout the system and, especially, the criticality of the defence. There is huge concern about legal aid levels, and there is evidence that the result is that criminal defence is struggling, with those whom we saw last week—Aamer Anwar & Co—exiting the legal aid area. Of course, we know that people are perhaps less keen to enter the profession due to the conditions and pay. Where will that situation end up, if we take the holistic view of the system that you are putting forward? What needs to happen if we are not to end up in that place?

I understand. Martyn Evans, I have a final question for you. In your opening remarks to the convener, you mentioned that your aim was sustainable policing. What impact will such reductions in numbers, with flat cash or a 3 per cent budget reduction, whether to staff or officers, have on policing sustainability, and what will the impact be going forward generally?