Chamber and committees

Thank you. That was helpful.

Before you do, I would just like to come back in. You have mentioned implementation, which can be something of a theme with new work. Was implementation a challenge? Was it understood how much classroom resource and capacity would be required at the time of implementing curriculum for excellence but the resources were simply not there or too tight? Was that not understood?

Shona Spence said that there is clarity that the measures cannot be the same as those in the criminal justice system in terms of victims. Can I get some clarity that, whatever the specific measures are—I appreciate that you do not want to go into that—a child victim will have the same rights whether they are harmed by a 16-year-old or by a 21-year-old?

I would like to ask you about victims. I am sure that the committee agrees that it is important that we get it right for all the children involved, which includes the children who are harmed. Last week, we heard from Advocacy Support Safety Information Services Together, which shared a case study, which I think is always helpful in bringing us back to whom we are trying to help and what we are trying to do.

We heard about Chloe, who was 14 years old. The perpetrator, or the child who harmed her, was 16. Her case met the threshold for criminal court conditions. Chloe experienced strangulation, physical abuse and constant emotional abuse. Her partner had threatened to kill himself, had sent photos and videos of himself self-harming and had threatened to share intimate images of her. Because the case met the threshold for special bail conditions, ASSIST was able to do extensive safety planning with Chloe around her social media and her routines. It did a lot of advocacy with her school and it continues to work with her. In doing that work, it is having to manage the persistence of her ex-partner and his friends—I think that we all understand the nature of domestic abuse and that persistence. Even with all that support, Chloe spoke about feeling isolated and degraded all the way through the experience.

In contrast, we were told about the case of another young woman who was 14 years old in which the boy who caused her harm was going through the Scottish Children’s Reporter Administration. No protective measures are in place for that victim. They receive no information about what is going to happen next or what is being done to address the harm that has been caused by that young man. The woman in question feels that the abuse that she has been subjected to is being minimised and not taken seriously. If we do not get the bill right for victims, who are often children themselves, is there not a real danger that the message that we will send is that the abuse that they face at the hands of young men who perpetrate domestic abuse or sexual crimes is not being taken seriously?

Finally, convener, I do not want to offer more of a comment than a question, but I ask to be indulged. The hearings system is there to support a child who has caused harm. It is absolutely right that that child’s family circumstances are taken into account. However, I want it to be on record that we also need an understanding of what the victim is going through. At the moment, that is not there.

I understand that quite clearly. In the bill that is in front of us, there is a diminishment of children’s rights if the child is a victim, but you are working to ensure that that will not be the case.

Forgive me—sorry for interrupting, but can you imagine that being appropriate for a child? We talk at quite a high level a lot of the time, but that is a concrete example of a 14-year-old who has been harmed by a 16-year-old. Can you imagine it ever being therapeutically appropriate for them to be securely locked up in the same premises? I cannot—forgive me, but that is why I am pressing you on this.

I appreciate that answer, minister. We have shared our report and had the response. I acknowledge that you and your officials have met the organisations that are also raising those concerns and do not feel that enough progress is being made. Some of those organisations were with us last week.

It might be helpful for the committee to hear from you. You said that there is a fine balance to be struck. We have to hear that all children are important and that the safety of all children is important.

I said that a colleague will come in to talk about information. However, the right to privacy is not absolute. A person who is going to harm another does not have a right to privacy. We need to be clear in the language that we use, and I need the young women and their families who might be watching to know that our Government understands domestic abuse, the harm that it causes and how it is perpetrated, and that we will absolutely take action to make sure that those young women are safe as well as making sure that the other children who are involved—the children who are causing harm—are assisted with their behaviour.

I accept that you do not want to talk about specific measures. It is challenging for us not to hear about them, but the committee can take that away and act as we might.

I will ask about funding for multidisciplinary training under the bill. Anyone who understands violence against women and domestic abuse will understand the absolute necessity for a victim to be given information and assisted with safety planning. In the examples that we have been given, that has not happened through the hearings system. What multidisciplinary training will the Scottish Government implement?

When we began our scrutiny of the bill, we received a letter on behalf of a mother of a child who had been murdered, asking that we not reference the child by name. We have taken evidence on the impact of reporting on the families of victims, particularly where the victim has lost their life; on how that can be retraumatising; and on the impact, particularly on siblings, when their loved one’s name and the details of what happened to them get brought up in the press whenever something similar happens.

From evidence that we took last week, I understand that—and I am quoting those witnesses—not

“a huge amount of headway”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 25 October 2023; c 3.]

has been made on addressing the issue. Can you share your reflections on the matter with the committee and perhaps give us a flavour of your thinking on it?