Chamber and committees

There are 21 FMPs that are being led by Scotland and there a couple more that we are taking forward jointly with DEFRA. This has admittedly been a really complex piece of work. It has required stakeholder engagement and work across the different UK Administrations, not to mention the variety of assessments that have to be undertaken as part of that, including the conservation advice and strategic environmental assessments. As part of that process, we also have to consider the wider interaction with other policies and pieces of legislation. It is a really complex picture and we have to try to work through that in developing the plans. On top of that, we need to consult on them. I mentioned the engagement and how important that is.

As you mentioned, the deadline for the plans is coming up at the end of the year. Some of the challenges that we are facing in relation to the FMPs that we are producing in Scotland are shared by the other UK Administrations. You mentioned that some of the FMPs for England and Wales have been published, but, in general, we are all coming up against the same problems in working through the process. We are in discussions with the other UK Administrations and I hope to be able to provide more of an update to the committee in due course on the overall timelines for the plans.

They are the challenges that I have broadly outlined. Various assessments need to be undertaken, there is the interaction with legislation, and we need to put those things together. We also need to do the wider consultation. We have built in time to enable all of that to happen. If we are to introduce the fisheries management plans, we want to make sure that we get them right and that they are as thorough as they need to be.

However, the absence of the fisheries management plans does not mean that we are not actively managing our fisheries. We continue to do that. The plans will help to provide more transparency around that, but we have encountered those complexities in the process. I will write to the committee with further updates on that in due course.

I have outlined some of the assessments and the different interactions that need to be considered. There are a variety of factors as to why the work has taken longer than was anticipated. I appreciate your point about the pressures that exist in the marine space. The national marine plan 2 is being developed—that work is being led by the Acting Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero and Energy—and updates on it were provided last month. A lot of the issues that we are discussing will be considered in relation to the timescales that are being looked at there.

As I said, we are proceeding with the work and we are trying to do it as well and as thoroughly as we can. I will provide further updates to the committee on how that work is progressing.

You have raised a really important point and hugely important issues. From the outset, I want to make it clear that we condemn any trafficking of people and any exploitation of those who work in this country. We strengthened the law in relation to that in 2015 with an act that gave the police more powers and generally tried to strengthen the law in relation to such offences. However, undoubtedly, issues exist that we need to address.

You raised the matter in relation to fisheries first of all, and there are few issues to touch on in that regard. In relation to agriculture, in particular, you will be aware of the points that Richard Leonard raised during our discussions on the Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill and some of the issues that surfaced when the bill was going through Parliament. We support the Worker Support Centre, which highlighted some concerns with us, and I met it during the discussions on the bill.

The issue straddles a few policy areas. I will be meeting Richard Leonard—next week, I think—together with the Minister for Housing, so that we can try to address those problems. When it comes to housing policy, as I think that I said during the debate on the agriculture bill, we should expect the same accommodation standards for people regardless of where they are from or the jobs that they do. That is the ultimate aim of the policies that we are developing. However, that policy development and the discussions on that bill have highlighted the fact that there are gaps that we need to work together to address. Therefore, I hope that next week’s meetings will be a step towards that, and I know that the Minister for Housing is considering the matter, too.

In relation to the fishing industry, part of the problem is the use of transit visas. Ultimately, the various laws that would apply to workers here do not apply to those working under a transit visa. We raised concerns about this matter, including the use of those visas, with the UK Government.

We want the fishing industry to be an attractive career of choice. The industry itself has worked on a number of initiatives to try to get more people to work across the industry, but we absolutely have to do what we can to tackle those issues where we know that they exist. Obviously, any prosecutions will be for the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service and Police Scotland to deal with. However, we condemn any of that behaviour, and we want to ensure that people are working in suitable conditions when they come to live and work in this country.

Iain Wallace will be able to provide more detailed information in relation to that question.

We proactively publish a lot of the information in relation to the work that we undertake so that we are entirely transparent about the level of inspections. In the past, we have received quite a lot of correspondence on that and there has been a feeling that some vessels are being treated differently from others, but the work that we have undertaken has shown that that is not the case. Overall, nearly 4,000 intelligence reports have been received and there have been about 2,000 inspections. Some of that equates to massive increases in the overall inspection rate—a 50 per cent increase in the number of intelligence reports that have been received. All of that has been because of the prioritisation that that has been given.

The checks are done on a risk basis in some areas, and Iain will be able to provide more detail on that.

Ariane Burgess has articulated better than I could some of the issues with the amendment. I absolutely support the aspirations behind what Rachael Hamilton seeks to achieve, but the bill is not the appropriate place for it. The appropriate place would be discussions that we take forward on the good food nation plans.

As Rachael Hamilton highlighted, we discussed targets. Procurement is always a tricky area because there are so many things to consider between what is reserved and what is devolved. It is not an easy issue for us to fix. We have been considering the setting of targets and objectives through the good food nation plan. It is the first iteration of that plan, and it will develop as we get more data and more information that we can use to populate more targets and further objectives.

I ask the committee not to support amendment 200. Although I support the overall aspirations behind it, I think that discussions on the matter should take place as part of the development of the good food nation plans.

Absolutely. We are open to having a further discussion on that. By no means are we setting up a payment scheme here. The measures in the bill that we are discussing today will allow us potentially to provide support in the future. I hope that we will engage and have further discussion on that, and I am more than happy to pick that up with the member.

Amendment 141 seeks to amend paragraph 1 of schedule 1, which sets out examples of agricultural activities that might be supported by us in the future. As we have heard from Tim Eagle, the amendment adds “deer and game farming” to that list of agricultural activities. That is important, given the importance of both of those types of farming to a diverse agricultural industry, so I ask the committee to support amendment 141.

Amendment 142 seeks to add

“providing shelter to livestock ... reducing flood risk ... reducing soil loss”

and

“reducing risks to wader birds, including curlew”

among the “references to agriculture” in the bill. Support for those purposes is already covered by paragraphs 1 and 15 of schedule 1, but I am happy to support amendment 142.

Amendment 143 seeks to add

“cereals and oilseeds, peas and beans, other foraged crops”

among the “references to agriculture”. That provision is similar to amendment 140, which has been moved by Emma Roddick and which is more comprehensive than amendment 143. Given that, I would ask Tim Eagle not to move amendment 143.

Amendment 51 seeks to amend schedule 1, which sets out the range of support that can be provided for the production of agricultural products. The amendment expands the range of outcomes that support will achieve by adding support for the transition to sustainable land management. I am happy to support that amendment.

Amendment 52 seeks to amend schedule 1 by adding “wool” to the list of products in paragraph 3(3). Wool is an important and sustainable ancillary product of the agricultural industry. I ask the committee to support amendment 52.

Amendment 53 seeks to amend schedule 1 by adding “herbs” and “machinery”. I have no issue with adding herbs to the list of products that can be supported, but I have concerns similar to those that were raised by Ariane Burgess in relation to adding machinery to the list, as it is not an agricultural product. I should point out that it is already possible for us to provide support in respect of machinery under paragraph 7 of schedule 1. That would include investing in rural businesses and co-operatives, which would include support for machinery rings. I would ask Rhoda Grant not to move amendment 53, perhaps with a view to making a change to cover herbs at stage 3.

Amendment 7 seeks to add “poultry meat and eggs” to the list of products in paragraph 3(3) of schedule 1, and amendment 144 seeks to add “venison” to that list. The Government is committed to supporting the poultry, broiler, egg and venison sectors, so I ask the committee to support amendments 7 and 144.

Amendment 145 would amend paragraph 3(4) of schedule 1 to provide that people would not be able to be supported under the terms of paragraph 3(2) if they produced venison only as an “ancillary activity”. I do not believe that that change would support the venison sector, and I am not entirely sure of the reasoning behind the amendment, so I look forward to hearing more information about it. At the moment, though, I ask the committee not to support amendment 145.

Amendment 54 would amend schedule 1 to require that preference be given to those involved in “primary production activities” when assistance was provided under paragraph 4 for those producing or processing food. Paragraphs 2 and 3 of schedule 1 already provide for support for primary producers, and our support priorities will, of course, be set out in the rural support plan when we publish it in due course.

However, amendment 54 pre-empts the decisions that we will want to make with the sector as part of the co-development work that we are undertaking. Through that approach, we will work out when it is appropriate to give preference to primary producers and when it is not, for a legitimate reason. I will give an example to highlight some of the potential issues with the amendment. It could result in less support being available to food processors, despite the valuable contribution that they make to our Scottish food and drink industry, so I ask the committee not to support amendment 54.

Amendment 146 seeks to restrict the support that could be given in the future for creating new woodland. The Scottish ministers must already have regard to the forestry strategy when we exercise our functions in relation to sustainable forest management, and the strategy’s principles must be adhered to when we develop any forestry support, including any support that will be provided under the bill. The underlying principles behind amendment 146 would limit the support that we could provide, even if there was a good and legitimate reason for us to provide support, such as the protection of jobs in rural communities. However, I appreciate the overall objective that Ariane Burgess is trying to achieve, and I am keen to strengthen our commitment to creating more sustainable Scottish woodland, so I ask her not to move amendment 146, to allow me to consider the proposals further and work with her ahead of stage 3.

Amendment 55 seeks to amend paragraph 5(1)(c) of schedule 1 to restrict the types of available forestry support for agroforestry activities on arable land to only “hedges and wind breaks”. Although I completely understand the concerns that have led to the amendment being lodged, it would prevent agroforestry systems on all arable land, and some such land could be suitable for a mixed production approach. Paragraph 5(1)(c) provides support to farmers for the implementation of agroforestry systems, which are critical to integrating trees on farms while maintaining primary agricultural production and offering additional benefits to arable businesses, including through carbon capture, enhanced biodiversity and business diversification. Given that clarification, I hope that Rhoda Grant will not move amendment 55. If she does, I encourage the committee not to support it.

Section 6 will enable us to provide future support in different forms, such as grants, loans or guarantees, and it will also enable us to then put conditions on that support. It is deliberately broadly drafted to provide maximum flexibility and to enable the Government and Parliament to future proof the provisions introduced by the bill.

Amendments 202 and 203, in the name of Brian Whittle, seek to prioritise support for different activities. I have been consistently clear that there is no contradiction between high-quality food production and producing food in a way that works for climate and nature. Amendments 202 and 203 directly contradict that and fly in the face of what we have tried to set out. The powers in section 6 are already broad enough to enable us to prioritise

“primary production of food and drink products”

in the manner intended, if it is right to do so. I do not consider amendments 202 and 203 to be helpful additions to the bill, because they would probably confuse things rather than help understanding. I therefore ask the committee not to support them.

Amendment 66 would impose conditions on how we deliver future support. Although I understand the intention behind the amendment, which Rhoda Grant lodged, it does not work, because the purposes for which support can be provided extend far beyond land. Examples that highlight that are existing cross-compliance statutory management requirements, such as those that relate to animal health and welfare, food and feed, safety and traceability, and the requirements for the conservation of wild birds. There are also other examples. Those are all vital conditions for protecting animal and human health and the environment. Such measures cannot be restricted on the basis of farm size. That is why I encourage members not to support amendment 66.

I will come to Edward Mountain’s amendment 169, but I will cover the other amendments in the group first.

With regard to amendments 166 and 72, under the existing agricultural support scheme, conditions can be imposed that relate to quite a wide range of matters. Where conditions are not complied with, Scottish ministers can require the repayment of support, including with interest. In rare cases, it might be right to refuse, or to recover, support that is otherwise due, even if the standard conditions for support are met.

I hope that we would all agree that it is appropriate to take forward such provisions into a new financial support framework. Section 10 therefore provides ministers with the ability to

“refuse to provide support if they consider that it is not in the public interest for a person to receive it”

or to recover support that has already been paid.

They have to do so, however, in accordance with the regulations that will be set out under section 10. Those regulations will make provision in respect of the meaning of “the public interest” for that purpose. Any regulations that we bring forward would be subject to scrutiny by Parliament. It might, for example, be in the public interest to be able to refuse to pay support for animal welfare purposes to a person who has an animal cruelty conviction or to recover previously granted support from such a person.

Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 166 and Rhoda Grant’s amendment 72 would require any regulations to make provision in respect of the public interest. However, their proposed changes are not necessary, because section 10 already provides the powers that we need for that purpose. Rather than providing clarity, therefore, those amendments could make the scope of the power to make regulations less clear.

With regard to amendment 73, committee members will, no doubt, be aware that the three-month period that we have specified in the bill mirrors what is in the UK Agriculture Act 2020. Three months seems to be a reasonable period for an exceptional power to intervene in agricultural markets, especially as section 12(8) of the bill provides a means for the extension of that declaration and section 12(9) provides for

“making ... another ... declaration”,

which may relate

“in whole or part to the same exceptional market conditions”

if that proves to be necessary.

I think that the existing provisions that we have set out are proportionate. They also offer the appropriate means by which the period can be extended when necessary.