Chamber and committees

Our major item for consideration this morning is a look into how expiring private finance initiative contracts are dealt with, which is something that the committee has delved into over the past few months. I am very pleased that we have a line-up of people who will, I hope, shed some light on that process, how it is working and how it might work in the future.

I am very pleased to welcome Neil Rennick, the director general for education and justice in the Scottish Government; Peter Reekie, the chief executive of the Scottish Futures Trust; Kerry Alexander, the director of infrastructure, finance and programmes at the Scottish Futures Trust; Teresa Medhurst, the chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service; Lorraine Roughan, the project executive for His Majesty’s Prison Kilmarnock; and Adam Jobson, the director of organisational development at the Scottish Prison Service. You are very welcome.

We have quite a number of questions to put to you this morning, but before we get to those, I invite Neil Rennick and Teresa Medhurst to make brief opening remarks.

Thank you very much, indeed. Can I ask an opening question of the director general? Did you say that the Scottish Government is not directly responsible for the process? You are the accountable officer, are you not? Your responsibility is to make sure that there is value for money in the outcomes from the process.

Yes. I understand that you are not in breach of the TUPE regulations. You could continue to pay the staff at the Serco rates and employ them on the Serco terms and conditions. Our point of interest here is that, given that these are the people who make the prison work or not work so how they are treated is quite important, there are questions about how that is working and whether it could be done in a different way. Could it be done in a more accelerated way, given that we understand that there are some issues around capacity?

Okay. I am going to bring in other members of the committee. I will bring in Jamie Greene, and Graham Simpson may also have a question on the subject.

Okay. I call Mr Simpson.

On 1 December, not by 1 December.

Thank you very much. I bring in the deputy convener.

Do you know how many of those contracts that are coming to an end between now and 2030 involve some kind of costs? Kerry Alexander might be able to help with that.

Okay. The BBC carried a story with the headline “PFI ‘buy back’ deals to cost taxpayer millions”. I do not know about the figure of millions of pounds, but it referred to 11 PFI contracts. However, you think that the figure is nine. Can you comment on that?

As you have mentioned East Ayrshire, I am bound to go into the broader issue of the East Ayrshire community hospital. The then First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announced that that hospital was going to be taken back into NHS Ayrshire and Arran earlier than the time scheduled in the PFI contract, and I think there has been an estimate of the additional cost. If that issue fell to your department, Mr Rennick, would there not have to be a conversation between the minister—in that case, the First Minister—and you as the accountable officer as to whether that was the right decision?