Chamber and committees

We will go back to you, Craig.

Well, we all have lots more questions, which I think demonstrates the need for at least another evidence-taking session on this matter. I know that there are committee members who want to come back in, myself included; however, as I mentioned at the start of the session, Rhoda Grant is joining us remotely, and I invite her, in these last couple of minutes, to put her questions to the team.

In those answers, I did not hear anybody talk about going beyond commissioning or about conversion to more of a national health service model for the national care service. However, we are pressed for time, so I will move on.

We have covered a lot on the workforce, but I have a parting question on that. Caroline Lamb, you mentioned the uprating of the hourly rate of pay from April this year. Do you have a timetable showing where you expect rates of pay to go in the next five years? That is the time horizon that you spoke about for the 25 per cent uplift in resources.

Auditor General, I will take you back to the question that Craig Hoy put to you on written authority and ministerial direction. It is central to the debate about transparency, accountability and when decisions were made.

When I review the correspondence from 8 October and 9 October, I discern that written authority might have been at work. The email from Transport Scotland that reflects CMAL’s concerns about the risks associated with the contract says:

“The Board would wish the Minister to be appraised of these risks and to acknowledge to the Board that he fully understood the potential risk of assigning a contract to FMEL under these circumstances. The Board feel it is their absolute duty to point out the risk to their shareholder and in that respect would expect approval, should”

the Scottish Government

“wish this project to proceed, and to receive direction to that effect”.

The expression “direction” is explicitly used in that correspondence.

The next day, the reply is submitted. That letter to Erik Østergaard from the director of aviation, maritime, freight and canals at Transport Scotland, dated 9 October, says:

“The Scottish Ministers, both in their capacity as CMAL’s sole shareholder and more generally, also confirm that CMAL is authorised”—

Transport Scotland uses the word “authorised”—

“to enter into the Contracts and any associated documentation.”

Paragraph 10 of the letter says:

“I confirm that the Scottish Ministers”—

plural—

“have considered and approved the contents of this letter.”

It looks very much as though there was written authorisation and ministerial direction, but it does not appear to have been recorded, as is required under the legislation. Do you have any comment on that?

Thank you for that concise and clear opening statement.

Donna, do you want to add to that?

We have two evidence sessions this morning. The second is with the Auditor General for Scotland on the report on the new vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides. However, before that, we will take evidence on the Audit Scotland briefing on social care that came out recently.

I am delighted to welcome our four witnesses, who join us online. We are joined by Caroline Lamb, who is the chief executive of NHS Scotland and the Scottish Government’s director general for health and social care, and Donna Bell, who is the director of social care and national care service development in the Scottish Government. We are also joined by two representatives from the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities: Nicola Dickie, who is the director of people and policy, and Sarah Watters, who is the director of membership and resources.

We have a series of questions to put to the witnesses after we hear short opening statements from Caroline Lamb and Nicola Dickie. Given that the witnesses are online, they should use the chat function to indicate if any of them wants to come in and we will do our level best to bring them in. If Caroline Lamb or Nicola Dickie wants to bring in Donna Bell or Sarah Watters, they should let us know and we will ensure that they are called in.

I invite Caroline Lamb to give us a short opening statement.

Thank you very much. My next question is whether you both accept the recommendations in paragraphs 35 to 38 of the Audit Scotland briefing. Do you accept the recommendations that are set out there?

Donna Bell also wishes to come in on that point.

We will return to some of those themes as we go on. The concern that we have—and one of the threads that runs through the Audit Scotland report—is the need for a sense of urgency and an understanding not just that the matter is on your agenda but that there is an action plan with force behind it, which is leading to change.

I invite Craig Hoy to ask a series of questions.