Chamber and committees

Okay. In his evidence, Roy Brannen made clear that he felt that the gap had been filled, but Audit Scotland’s position is that it was not filled—and that is not just a matter of record keeping or a bit of paper; it is about the whole approach and it is about transparency.

Let me pick up on another issue. Fran Pacitti, the documents that you found on 11 May tell us a little about who was involved in the decision-making process. Mr Brannen told us on 26 May that it was

“entirely a decision for the transport minister.”—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 26 May 2022; c 6.]

However, we can see from the correspondence of 8 and 9 October that you unearthed that the Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities, Keith Brown, was copied into emails. The last word in that series of emails belongs to the Deputy First Minister, who was clearly an active player in the decision; a report of his comments was in an email that was sent at a quarter past 5 on 9 October. How do you reconcile that with the comment that the decision was entirely for the transport minister? Perhaps Hugh Gillies will answer that.

Okay, but other people in ministerial positions were copied into the emails. They were part of the email conversation. What do you say to that?

But what do you say, Mr Gillies?

I think that we understand that; we are trying to get to the bottom of who was involved in the decision.

I will move things along and ask Colin Beattie to put some questions to the witnesses.

I know that Mr Brannen is a roads and highways man—civil engineering and all that. Did he have something against ferries? If big road contracts were put through that process of scrutiny, why would a ferries contract to the value of £97 million of public money—we now know that it is likely to be of the value of £0.25 billion—not have been put through that process?

Sorry, what is the value of the Islay ferries?

That is fine.

The other tidying-up point that I have is about the emails that Fran Pacitti found on 11 May. At 15:45 on 9 October, Gordon Wales, the director of financial management, sent an email to your predecessor Transport Scotland official John Nicholls and copied in Ainslie McLaughlin. In that email, he referred to “banana skins”. What were the banana skins?

We understand that. We might return to the point when we hear from other witnesses.

I draw this morning’s session to a close. I thank Mo Rooney, Colin Cook, Dermot Rhatigan, Hugh Gillies, Fran Pacitti and Chris Wilcock for joining us. We appreciate the time that you have given us. We have mentioned a couple of times the committee’s disappointment that the interim director general for net zero was not able to be with us. We might have a further session to explore the issue a bit more, or we might turn to written evidence, but that is for the committee to consider. For the time being, however, I thank you for your input this morning.

The principal item on our agenda is continued consideration of the Auditor General for Scotland’s report, “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”, which is a continuation of the evidence session that we held on 26 May.

I welcome back our witnesses. Colin Cook is the director of economic development in the Scottish Government, and Dermot Rhatigan is the deputy director for manufacturing and industries. Mo Rooney joins us in the committee room today. She is the deputy director of the Scottish Government’s strategic commercial interventions division. From Transport Scotland, we have Hugh Gillies, interim chief executive; Fran Pacitti, director of aviation, maritime freight and canals; and Chris Wilcock, head of the ferries unit.

Before moving to questions, I want to place on the record the committee’s disappointment that we are not joined today by the portfolio accountable officer for transport—the director general for net zero. Section 9 of the Scottish public finance manual is pretty clear about the expectations that are placed on designated accountable officers to give evidence to the committee. We retain the option of calling back the interim DG for net zero at some point in the future.

I remind members and witnesses that, as always, we are up against the clock, so I ask that we try to keep questions and answers as short and concise as possible.

I invite Colin Cook to make an opening statement.

That is 11 May. You found that document on the morning of 11 May.