Chamber and committees

I presume, however, that you agree with the recommendation in the report that the Scottish Government and NHS boards need to work “more collaboratively” in the future.

Thank you.

I suppose that it also depends, does it not, on the model that is chosen? At the moment, it is envisaged that the national care service will, largely, be a commissioning model, whereas, at one time, we were told that it would be the modern-day equivalent of the foundation of the national health service, which is a very different model from the one that has been put forward in the bill.

I am sure that the Auditor General was not suggesting “a dry annual report”, but was, rather, suggesting something that would be informative and would help people to understand the progress that has been made. We have highlighted some of the areas where we have concerns, but as you said at the start, some extremely critical work is going on—thanks, not least, to the workforce. The committee adds our thanks to yours to the staff who do such incredible work and provide services day in, day out and night in, night out.

On that note, I close this morning’s session. Caroline Lamb, Richard McCallum and John Burns, thank you for your input, which has been very useful. You said that you might get back to us with a bit more detail on some areas; that would be most welcome.

I have a quick follow-up question that is based on the Audit Scotland report. You said that you agree with its findings and recommendations. One of the headline findings of the report is:

“The proposed National Care Service will place a huge strain on the health and social care budget”.

Do you accept that conclusion?

As a committee, we are used to delays. Sometimes, they are not as inevitable as you perhaps suggest. What does the delay do to the cost of those projects? Will they come in on budget, or will they be over budget because of that delay?

The principal item on our agenda is an evidence session on the Audit Scotland section 23 report, “NHS in Scotland 2022”. In the interests of transparency, I refer members to my entry in the members’ register of interests, which includes membership of two trade unions that organise in the national health service.

I am especially pleased to welcome our three witnesses: Caroline Lamb, chief executive of NHS Scotland and the director-general of health and social care; Richard McCallum, director of health finance and governance in the Scottish Government; and John Burns, chief operating officer in NHS Scotland. You are all very welcome. We have quite a number of questions that we would like to put to you. Before we get to those, I ask Caroline Lamb to make a short opening statement.

Good morning. I welcome everybody to the 13th meeting in 2023 of the Public Audit Committee. We have received apologies from Colin Beattie and Willie Coffey, but I am delighted to welcome Bill Kidd, who is substituting on the committee today.

The first item on the agenda is for members to consider whether to take agenda items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Are we agreed to do so?

Members indicated agreement.

Okay, thanks.

Do you accept the point made by the Auditor General, in paragraph 99 of the report, that

“The wording of the new targets is open to interpretation”?

There is a question mark over whether waiting time targets are properly useful and transparent for people. The report also notes, in paragraph 105, that the Office for Statistics Regulation has deliberated over the statistics produced by the Scottish Government on waiting times and concluded that they could be misleading because they are based on median waiting times. Do you accept that criticism?

Okay, but we had an exchange of correspondence about a year ago and you wrote to me on 13 May 2022, saying:

“We are committed to being open and transparent about data on waiting times performance”.

However, several months later, an Audit Scotland report comes out and points out that not only have you been criticised by the Office for Statistics Regulation because your waiting time target information is not transparent, but you are being criticised in a similar vein by the Auditor General.