Chamber and committees

Good morning. On abuse of staff, when I phoned my general practice this week, there was an automated message making it clear that, if anybody continued to be abusive to staff, they would be removed from the practice. The level of abuse towards front-line staff is therefore not particular to only the hospitality industry. I suggest that the message that needs to go out is that, if people are abusive, they will not be welcome in pubs, restaurants or whatever it is in the first place.

Gavin Stevenson said that the Government is putting up a barrier between customers and businesses, but I would hardly call my having to pull up my certificate a barrier. That is the danger that I see from what I have heard this morning, so I want to move on from the negativity. By the way, the number of young people who have been vaccinated has gone up since the proof of vaccination scheme was introduced. The issue is that you cannot necessarily claim that that was a direct result of the scheme, but you are wrong to say that the number has not gone up.

We need to take the red herrings out of the equation and start talking about what needs to happen. On that note, is it your view and the view of the industry that it would be helpful if, as well as providing proof of vaccination, people could provide proof of a negative test? That is what happened yesterday in Northern Ireland, for example, where much more stringent measures than we have here so far are being introduced. Do you have a view on that? Would that add to the proof that someone is safe to go into such venues?

Yes, it does. Thank you.

We are tight for time, so I ask other members of the panel, starting with Barry McCulloch, to concentrate specifically on the question of a proof of a negative test being added to the proof of vaccination certificate.

Thank you. Finally, there is an article in The Guardian this morning by the health editor, Andrew Gregory. The headline is

“Mask-wearing cuts Covid incidence by 53%, says global study”.

The article says that

“Results from more than 30 studies from around the world were analysed in detail, showing a statistically significant 53% reduction in the incidence of Covid with mask wearing and a 25% reduction with physical distancing.”

I have raised the matter before, but I am concerned. This week, I have been in a number of shops where particularly the younger generation, young parents and so on, were not wearing masks or face coverings. In one shop, there were tannoy announcements every so often saying that people should wear masks. If this piece in The Guardian today is right about the evidence showing that mask wearing is having such an impact on enabling us to live with this virus, then the Government needs to look at enforcement. There is no point in introducing further baseline measures when one of the strongest measures is not being enforced. You have said that the Cabinet has discussed this, but where are we at? Are you satisfied with the levels of enforcement or should you be looking at other steps to ensure that the wearing of face coverings in shops and so on is enforced?

Would any other witnesses like to comment on that specific issue?

I spoke with theatres this week, and the point that Kirsty Cumming made about pantomimes came up.

Barry McCulloch, you do not have a view on the negative test but has the Federation of Small Businesses put forward any proposals for how the Government could support small businesses if this roll-out takes place?

I hope that Mr Swinney accepts that this is not the normal way to make legislation. The Parliament regularly agrees to Scottish statutory instruments that are already in force. That is not ideal, but I for one have said that party politics and trying to score political points should be put to one side. We are in a crisis and everyone should be behind the Government in trying to make progress, but the quid pro quo for that is complete transparency of thinking. If you propose, next Tuesday, to extend the vaccination certification scheme without including in it what every other European country and our colleagues in Northern Ireland and Wales have, you will need to explain that. We need transparency. While we are making laws in a way that is not the norm and is not fully transparent, we need to better understand the Government’s thinking. It is not good enough to say that you will make a decision next Tuesday and announce it then.

My next question is for Dr Buist as well. In guidance that was published last week—I think NHS Tayside was highlighted as an example of good practice—it was suggested that people who approach accident and emergency be referred to wherever they should have gone. I saw that Dr Buist commented on that. The guidance suggests that such people will be referred back to the community, but we seem to have a crisis in the community. People contact me daily to tell me of the difficulty that they have had in securing appointments with a GP or a medical practice. There are growing waiting lists of people who have been assessed as needing social care—home care—in the community.

First, does that pour pressure on to accident and emergency departments, which is where people will eventually turn up? Secondly, is it acceptable that accident and emergency departments can refer people back to the community setting, despite that setting being unable to cope?

We will start with Dr Buist.

I want to start with Dr Buist. Many of these problems existed before last winter and before Covid. What should the Government be doing that it is not doing to prioritise in order to get through the winter?

Secondly, should we be looking at system change and, if so, should we be doing that now or should we wait and just put all our energy into getting through the winter? By “system change”, I am referring to an article that the previous chief executive of NHS Scotland, Paul Gray, wrote in October in which he set out the need for system change, highlighting the primary care systems in Alaska and Sweden and saying that such systems can deliver. Where do we as politicians strike the balance, and what should the priorities be? Can we do both things?

When I have raised issues with NHS Fife around social care, the chief executive has been quick to tell me that I need to speak to the chief executive of Fife Council, who is equally quick to refer me to staff three or four levels down the system and tell me that they will get back to me. Nobody seems to be taking responsibility. Are the health and social care partnerships and integration joint boards fit for purpose, and do they have the capacity to meet the challenges that we will face over the coming months?