Chamber and committees

One of the key barriers is that, as I said, there are 1,200 disparate employers that are working to contracts that the Government has no control over.

I say again that the two wage rises, which I and everybody here wanted in order to put money into people’s pockets and purses as quickly as possible, were not the easiest things to achieve. We do our level best here, but there are things that we rely on others doing, which often makes things not as easy as they might seem.

Absolutely. This is not about moving the deck chairs—I am not into that kind of game. We need to take cognisance of the views that we have heard from those who are in receipt of care and support, from their carers and from front-line staff about the improvements that are required.

I return to a point that I made in my opening statement: we canna just tinker about at the edges, here. We have a changing demography in Scotland and we need to expand the social care workforce, as I also said earlier. We need to make a real change and, of course, people have to be at the very heart of our doing that.

Folk in the consultation said that they wanted Scottish ministers to have control and accountability over this.

Because of the work that we had done on adult social care, we were well aware that we had a huge amount of information. A huge amount of consultation has been carried out. We have undertaken to do similarly for children’s services and criminal justice social work. Work is on-going in looking at all of that. We will continue to consult and to listen to people on those fronts.

I reiterate that the Government has taken no decision on transferring children’s services or criminal justice social work to the national care service.

As you have just done, we recognise that caring roles vary in nature and intensity. We also recognise that some folk feel more able to access certain things than others do.

One of the key aspects, which comes up time and again, is the eligibility criteria. In removing some of the eligibility criteria for those unable to access sufficient breaks, the bill aims to shift the balance to enable more carers to access preventative short-break support. That might need to be different from what is currently on offer in particular places.

The key aspect is to understand better what a sufficient break is and to recognise what the differences are in terms of the nature and intensity of the care. The stakeholder group has been established to work our way through that, including on reaching a definition of “sufficient breaks”.

I think that we have a long way to go on data. I will have a look at the English, Welsh and Northern Irish situations. There is some data that I would like to get my hands on that is not easy to obtain, and we have to do better on that front. We must also do better in terms of individuals’ data. That is why the national health and care record is important. Depending on the data sharing agreements that are associated with that, we will be able to get much more accurate data about what is going on.

I get your point about the consistency and quality of data. You will know, having seen it at this committee, that, often, data is caveated, sometimes quite heavily, so it does not necessarily give us the true picture. Mr O’Kane talked about comparing apples to oranges; I often feel that that is what we are doing, when we look at comparative data. We absolutely need to get better at that. The national health and care record will go a long way in helping us on that front. Again, even before the NCS, we must continue to refine what data we collect, how we collect it and the impacts of that on people.

I will consider anything, but I again come back to the point that, if we put too much into primary legislation, we might end up in a situation in which it is difficult to change what is there. I do not really like the term “reablement”, so I am glad that you used the term “rehabilitation”. In that regard, we are seeing advances as we move forward. We do not want to set everything in stone, so secondary legislation is probably the right place for that.

Obviously, I want those very good folks, some of whom I know well—including Fanchea Kelly, whom I know from my previous role in housing—to be at the table helping us to shape what is required as we move forward. Blackwood Homes has made immense advances in the technology that it has put in play so that folk can live free and independent lives. Those include a washing machine that irons, which was something that took my eye—Ah hinna got een yet, but I certainly have been considering that over the piece.

We need those folks to be at the heart of the process. I will consider what they have to say. I do not think that that issue necessarily has to be in primary legislation, but their voices have to be heard, and we have to get that right as we move forward.

That is a key aspect. In recent weeks, the carers parliament has held events here and near here. Some folk are worried about leaving their loved ones and there are cases where some folk just canna leave their loved ones. How do we flex all this to ensure that we are putting some support in place?

The bill includes the right to have breaks from caring. However, the other week, one body argued with me that, although that right might be in place, a carer might not get that break because their loved one needs them all the time. It wanted to know what else we can put in place to enable somebody to have downtime. We have to work our way through that.

Some really good stuff has gone on in certain places to help folk who have been unable to go for short-term breaks. I am sweirt to give a specific example, as I might identify people, so I will just mention that other things have been put in place that are beneficial to them and to their loved ones. Those things might not be as good as a break, but they allow for some relaxation and downtime.

I should probably also say that we are setting up a stakeholder working group, which will include carers, statutory services and carer centres, to look at the issues that need to be addressed in that regard. Again, we will continue to listen to what folk have to say. Even in the past couple of weeks, I have heard some stories that are new to me.

I keep a very close eye on the issue, and I have already used powers of direction, as folk are aware. I get regular updates from the Care Inspectorate on any complaints that it receives to do with someone being denied access. The number of such complaints has decreased dramatically—there are very few now. I would not want to put a figure on that now, but we can provide you with that.

I also get—fortnightly, I think—a list of where there are outbreaks and information on what is going on in those places. It is rare to see a home closed for admission and it is rare for there to be no visits.

I can provide you with much more detailed information on that. However, I assure the committee that I keep a very close eye on the matter and that Scottish Government officials will challenge if they think that there is anything that is not working right for people.

I will look at what Mr Hazelwood said. He has engaged with us a fair amount. If I remember rightly, he was at the co-design process for the charter of rights and responsibilities the other week. Again, I come back to the point that not everything has to be in primary legislation. Although it is absolutely vital to get end-of-life care right, if we put too much into primary legislation, that does not allow us the flexibility to change.

I rule nothing in or out, but probably the best way of getting this right is by doing it in secondary legislation so that there is flexibility to change in the future as care in the area changes, as it has done to a huge degree in recent years.

However, on the points that Mr Hazelwood has made and others have made elsewhere, we have to do all that we can to try to meet the needs of folks at the end of life. I myself have had loved ones and friends who have passed at home and who had much better experiences because of that. We recognise that there is work to be done, but the issue is whether that needs to be in primary or secondary legislation.