Chamber and committees

Convener, I do not want to speak for the committee, but it would be interesting to see what has been on the agenda at those meetings and what actions have been taken.

My final question is about buy-in and the change of culture. Many of the relevant bodies in the bill fall under other ministers’ portfolios. With regard to engagement thus far, have other ministers asked those bodies how they intend to make changes to fulfil the duties that will come in if the bill is passed?

You have heard all this from me before, minister, and I am sorry to cut across you. I recognise that the issue falls into different portfolios. I get all of that. However, you made a very specific statement about making sure that legislation and regulation are embedded in order to get this right. If you cannot answer today, it would be useful for the committee to receive a response on the actions that are being taken in the here and now to get this right for victims.

We all recognise that a holistic approach needs to be taken, but I think that that kind of phraseology—that is, talking about handing someone over to another body—is part of the problem. Some folk think, “That’s my part of the job done. Now it’s somebody else’s problem.”

Ms Arbuckle, you mentioned some areas in which the police are involved in order to deal with addiction and mental health issues—for example, you talked about DBI. Do you see that sort of thing as part of the job, or is it just a wee bit that you do before handing the person over to somebody else?

I am using your phraseology, Ms Arbuckle. It is not my phraseology—it is yours.

I have no relevant interests to declare.

Thank you very much. I will leave it there, convener.

I thank the witnesses for their answers thus far. I think that everybody agrees that the legislation is necessary. Everybody, as always, has tried to point out the best practice that is taking place. It is just a pity that that was not exported across the board. However, the legislation alone is probably not enough, and there needs to be cultural change across the board. I want to concentrate on some of that and on keeping folk out of crisis.

I was interested in two things that Valerie Arbuckle said. First, you said that “everybody is very busy”. I get that. Most folk are busy dealing with crisis and will become less busy only if they are not dealing with crisis. Secondly, you used the phrase,

“handing the person ... to another ... body”.

I will be honest with you. If that attitude continues—if it is seen to be about handing the person to another body rather than about collaborating with other bodies to provide support—that will not bring about the cultural change that we want to see. Do you want to comment on that, Ms Arbuckle?

Thank you. I could ask what you mean by “robust”, but I had probably better leave that for now, and you might give us an indication afterwards of what you would like to see in terms of that “robust” action.

I turn briefly to Suzie Mcilloney on the culture change aspect. We all know that excellent legislation can be brought into play—we heard earlier from witnesses about our having some of the best homelessness legislation in the world—but that it does not necessarily work for everyone in practice. What do we need to do to underpin the new legislation when it comes to that cultural change? What should we ask public bodies to do to ensure that?

I get the gist—thank you.

I turn briefly to Mr Togher, whom I know from another life—it is good to see you, Pat. I would say that some of our previous discussions over the years have been about a lack of co-operation between public bodies to help an individual. Is the legislation enough, or do we need a further cultural shift so that everyone takes ownership of helping individuals?

Good morning. I turn first to Shea Moran, because he stated very clearly that the working groups that he was involved in—the voices of lived experience—feel that elements are missing from the bill. Mr Moran, will you expand on that? What is missing? What is required for the change that you seek? Is it legislation or is it the cultural change that Suzie Mcilloney mentioned in her opening remarks?