Chamber and committees

Good morning. I give a warm welcome to the 23rd meeting in 2022 of the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee.

Our first agenda item is to decide whether to take agenda item 3 in private. Are members content to do so?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you very much, cabinet secretary. I will open on those points about four-nations co-operation. We have heard today that there may well be some progress in Northern Ireland and we wait to see what happens there, but what discussions have you had with your Welsh counterparts about this? Are they on the same page as the Scottish Government in their opinion of the bill and its potential impact on devolved settlements in both areas?

That exhausts the committee’s questions this morning. I thank the cabinet secretary and his officials for their attendance. We will now move into private session.

Our second item is to take evidence on the legislative consent memorandum for the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill. We have two evidence sessions on the LCM this morning. I welcome to the committee Dr Ruth Fox, director, Hansard Society; Sir Jonathan Jones KC, senior consultant, Linklaters LLP; and Dr Oliver Garner, research fellow, Bingham Centre for the Rule of Law. I hope that we will be joined online by Professor Catherine Barnard, deputy director, UK in a Changing Europe. We might also be joined by our committee’s advisor Professor Katy Hayward for a short time.

I will ask the opening question. In our recent report, “The Impact of Brexit on Devolution”, the committee shared its view that

“the extent of UK Ministers’ new delegated powers in devolved areas amounts to a significant constitutional change.”

Given that the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill does not confer any powers directly on Scottish ministers and that there would be no requirement to obtain consent from the Scottish Parliament or Scottish Government before the delegated powers proposed in the bill are exercised by United Kingdom ministers, what are your views on the impact that that could have on the way in which devolution operates and on the Scottish Parliament’s scrutiny roles in particular?

Professor Barnard has had to leave, because of connection issues.

I will bring in Professor Hayward now, who is our adviser—I did not realise that she was still with us, so my apologies to the deputy convener, as I said that she had left.

I am sorry, Professor Barnard, but your sound is breaking up at this end and we are not able to pick up enough of your contribution. I am very sorry but we are going to have to move on to a supplementary question from Alasdair Allan.

The inaugural meeting of the Parliamentary Partnership Assembly was held on the morning on which the UK Government announced the bill, which did not set that partnership off on the best of terms, to say the least. We will meet again in the next couple of weeks. At that inaugural meeting, it was absolutely the view of Commissioner Šefcovic and the European contributors that the TCA was working and that that had been demonstrated by the negotiations on medicines.

Do you share that opinion? Do you think that the bill can be withdrawn and that we can move forward to negotiate on the areas, as highlighted by Mr Cameron, where there is a will?

I believe that Professor Barnard is with us now. I am not sure whether she heard my opening question. Do you want to make comment at this point? I do not think that the connection is good enough. Perhaps we can look into that.

I open up the questions to members. I invite Mr Cameron to come in.

I am conscious of time, but I will finish with a question that is really for the wider public’s understanding. We have heard quite concerning things. In your last contribution, Dr Fox, you said that the situation is “extremely worrying”. I think that Sir Jonathan Jones said earlier that potentially it will not end well. We already know that the measures are stifling certain areas of the trade and co-operation agreement, such as access to horizon funding and justice co-operation, and that there is an impact on Scottish areas, in agrifoods and exports. The emergency in my mind and that of many of my colleagues is the cost of living crisis. However, just how serious would it be for the reputation and the economy of the UK if the situation escalates into a further area of contention or indeed a trade war with the EU? Your answer could be succinct, and I realise that you may not want to answer the question.