Chamber and committees

Thank you, Dr Witcher. Those are very helpful opening remarks.

I hope that one of my colleagues will return later in the evidence session to the financial challenges and the relationship between devolved and reserved benefits. I will not take up those cudgels in my opening question—I will be a bit more geekish.

In our predecessor Social Security Committee, which I convened, we used to appreciate reports by SCOSS that made quite significant recommendations to the Government on how it could improve the roll-out and delivery of a whole variety of matters. By and large—I would say this—that seemed to work well. The recommendations were robust, there was clarity and the Government seemed to respond—not always, but by and large—positively and constructively. I am a Government back bencher, and it suits me to say those things, but have I captured things accurately? Is that one of the things that have worked well, or does more need to be done to support SCOSS in that role going forward?

Thank you for that exchange. It was remiss of me not to say that we will have some other questions on the timescale later, but those have been pre-empted. I should have identified that as convener, but we are where we are.

We move to questions from our colleague Paul O’Kane, who is online.

Dr Witcher, it is not often that a witness comes to the committee, identifies the problems, then, in the same response, gives the solution and says that everything has been delivered, so I thank you. I have one brief further question, although I may come back in later, depending on time.

According to the paper that we read ahead of today’s meeting, you are keen that the expertise that is captured in SCOSS is used proactively as well as reactively. Alongside scrutinising regulations and legislation and making recommendations for what should be tweaked, altered, made clearer and so on, I think that you were talking about SCOSS taking a much more proactive role. A pattern is emerging in the interaction between devolved and reserved social security matters, and there is a suggestion that a piece of research—a bit of proactive work in relation to that—would be helpful. Can SCOSS currently not do that because it is not able to do it or is not resourced to do it? You mentioned it in your paper. Could you say a wee bit about that, before colleagues come in with some other questions?

I know that Mr Mason wants to explore the finances underpinning some of this but, before we come to that, I want to check something. Cabinet secretary, you keep talking about the fact that, if the eligibility criteria do not change, the outcomes will not change in terms of who qualifies for and receives the existing benefit or the new Scottish benefit. We heard a lot about the judgments being based on expert opinion and the reasonableness test in the eligibility criteria.

We also heard that the IIAC has identified four conditions relating to long Covid that could potentially allow people to receive benefits, and that is caught up in the process. However, there is a difficulty with that, because the recommendations that politicians and processes rely on experts making are not always accepted—in this case, potentially, by the DWP on behalf of the UK Government. The reason I am putting that on the record is to ask you what parts of the eligibility criteria might need to be looked at again and changed. Should the eligibility criteria always be expert led?

Good morning and welcome to the 31st meeting in 2023 of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. We have apologies from our convener, Collette Stevenson.

Agenda item 1 is a decision on taking business in private. Do members agree to take agenda item 4 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

I will ask about the voice of the worker, of lived experience and of occupational health in a moment, but I take it from your first answers that SCOSS will not be an appropriate vehicle for offering that kind of advice and that fundamental changes would have to be made to the structures of SCOSS to enable it to do so.

Welcome back. Our next item of business is an evidence session with Dr Sally Witcher, the former chair of the Scottish Commission on Social Security, commonly known as SCOSS. The purpose of this session is to gain further insight into what lessons for the Scottish social security system can be learned from what has happened up to now.

I warmly welcome Dr Witcher to the meeting. I thank her for accepting our invitation and I also put on record our thanks for all the work and effort that she has put into designing and supporting Scotland’s social security system up to now. Before we move to questions, I invite her to make an opening statement.

Agenda item 2 is an evidence-taking session on the Scottish Employment Injuries Advisory Council Bill. This member’s bill, which was introduced by Mark Griffin MSP on 8 June 2023, is currently undergoing stage 1 scrutiny. We have already heard from four panels of witnesses, and next week we will hear from Mark Griffin, the member in charge of the bill.

I welcome to the meeting Shirley-Anne Somerville, Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and from the Scottish Government, Kirsten Simonnet-Lefevre, solicitor, and Risga Summers, policy manager. You are all very welcome, and thank you for joining us to aid our scrutiny.

Cabinet secretary, I believe that you have a short opening statement to make before we move to questions.

It is clear that the Scottish Government will have to think carefully about the kinds of knowledge and expertise that will be necessary to advise ministers on social security with regard to industrial disease and injury. Can you give us a little bit more information about the kind of knowledge and expertise that you think will be vital?

Just for my own clarity—without getting into any wrangling over whether occupational health or health and safety should be devolved or reserved, and irrespective of where those powers sit—do you believe that there should be clear roles for the Health and Safety Executive, occupational health and our trade union movement?