Chamber and committees

As no other member wishes to speak, I invite the cabinet secretary to wind up.

Agenda item 2 is stage 2 consideration of the Social Security (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. The Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Shirley-Anne Somerville, joins us. Thank you for coming along, cabinet secretary. You are joined by your officials, and I thank them for coming along, too, but only you can speak at this time.

Everyone should have with them a copy of the bill as introduced, the marshalled list of amendments, which was published on 6 September, and the groupings of amendments document, which sets out the groups of amendments in the order in which they will be debated. There will be one debate on each group of amendments. I will call the member who lodged the first amendment in the group to speak to and move that amendment and to speak to all other amendments in the group. Members who have not lodged amendments in the group but who wish to speak should indicate that by catching my attention.

The debate on the group will be concluded by my inviting the member who moved the first amendment in the group to wind up. Standing orders give any Scottish minister the right to speak on any amendment. I will therefore invite the cabinet secretary to contribute to the debate just before I call the member to wind up.

Following the debate on each group, I will check whether the member who moved the first amendment in the group wishes to press it or to seek to withdraw it. If they wish to press ahead, I will put the question on that amendment. If a member wishes to withdraw their amendment after it has been moved, they must seek the committee’s agreement to do so. If any committee member objects, the committee immediately moves to a vote on that amendment.

If any member does not want to move their amendment when called, they should say, “Not moved.” Please note that any other MSP may move such an amendment. If no one moves the amendment, I will immediately call the next amendment on the marshalled list.

Only committee members are allowed to vote. Voting in any division is by a show of hands. It is important that members keep their hands clearly raised until the clerk has recorded the vote.

The convener has a personal vote as a committee member and a casting vote in the event of a tie. As the convener is not available, I, as deputy convener, am carrying out that function today. How I use my casting vote is entirely down to my discretion; there are no agreed conventions. However, if I use my casting vote, immediately before doing so, I intend to indicate the basis on which I am using it each time.

The committee is required to indicate formally that it has considered and agreed to each section of and schedule to the bill, so I will put a question on each at the appropriate point.

With that now all on the record, we move to the consideration of amendments.

Section 1—Childhood assistance

The first group is on childhood assistance. Amendment 15, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 16 to 23 and 7.

I invite Jeremy Balfour to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 5.

Thank you for putting that on the record.

There will be a division.

For

Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)

Against

Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)

There will be a division.

For

Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

Against

Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)

Abstentions

Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)

The result of the division is: For 2, Against 4, Abstentions 2.

Amendment 118 disagreed to.

Amendments 119 to 125 not moved.

Section 8 agreed to.

Before section 9

Amendment 29 moved—[Shirley-Anne Somerville].

I thank members for stepping into the deliberate trap that I set for them. That being the case, consider yourselves suitably chastised.

Rather, the question is, that section 2, as amended, be agreed to.

Section 2, as amended, agreed to.

After section 2

Before I bring in the cabinet secretary, I will make a brief contribution. It is not in a political vein—I clearly have some very strong views on what the UK Government has done with regard to winter fuel payments, but, as I am chairing today’s meeting, I will put those views to one side for the purpose of this debate.

I say to Mr Balfour that, in my view, this is where a politically very well-intentioned amendment meets the harsh realities of budgetary constraints and the sobering fiscal position in which the Scottish Government finds itself, which is directly related to Westminster fiscal positions and spending decisions. That makes it incredibly difficult to land where Mr Balfour has landed, as well intentioned as the policy that he proposes is.

Ms Clark made some reasonable points. If—if, I say to Mr Stewart—it was remotely possible to mitigate the impact of the decision on winter fuel payments, despite the huge and severe financial pressures on this place, that would need to be considered in the round, so Mr Balfour’s amendment is not necessarily the way to do it.

I just want to put that on the record. I hope that I have not strayed into the political arena; it is more about the practicalities of what we would like to do.

Cabinet secretary, I will bring you in.