Chamber and committees

Yes, you can do that now.

Jeremy, just before you go on to your other question, I should add that one concern that the committee has heard quite clearly, certainly in the evidence that it has taken, is about the fact that language can change and the need to safeguard language and individuals. The need for future proofing has also been raised quite strongly by a variety of people who have given evidence. I have to be honest and say that I am sure that the committee will be urging the Government to look at the point with some haste.

Welcome to the 19th meeting in 2023 of the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee. I remind everyone present to switch their mobile phones to silent.

The first item of business is to decide whether to take items 4, 5 and 6 in private. Is the committee content to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you.

A couple of weeks ago, at the conveners’ group meeting, I asked the First Minister whether he thought that some type of protocol regarding section 104 orders would be useful, as this is the second—and probably not the last—SLC bill in which the situation has arisen. Although my question is not about the bill per se, do you think it would be worth while considering some type of protocol between the Scottish and UK Governments on section 104 orders?

Assuming that the bill is passed by the Parliament, can you indicate how long you think that it will take for any associated section 104 order to come into force? What legislative options are there to ensure that the bill’s commencement is not delayed and that there will be no black hole or gap in the law applying to pension scheme trusts?

Thank you. Over to Mercedes Villalba.

I will open the questions, the first of which is on section 104 orders. We faced a similar situation with the Moveable Transactions (Scotland) Bill. Will you provide the committee with an update on how discussions are progressing between the Scottish and UK Governments on a possible section 104 order with regard to the application of the bill’s provisions to pension scheme trusts?

On 23 May, Madelaine Sproule of the Church of Scotland Trust and Joan Fraser, a trustee of various trusts, appeared before the committee. Madelaine Sproule said:

“the crossover between the legislation that affects charitable trusts and the legislation that affects charities and other trusts is not entirely clear. I think that that could be specified better in the bill.”—[Official Report, Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee, 23 May 2023; c 28.]

In correspondence, the Scottish Law Commission expressed the view that section 70A of the Charities and Trustee Investment (Scotland) Act 2005, as amended by section 8 of the charities bill, if that bill is passed by Parliament, was a particular statutory power that would take priority over the general default power of the court in section 1 of the trusts bill. It went on to suggest that nowhere in the trusts bill is that explicitly stated.

To go back to Jeremy Balfour’s questions, it would be worth considering those points, and it would be good if you could write to the committee on them.

Thank you. I am sorry, Jeremy.