Chamber and committees

Yes, they were, but as you have said, that was before MUP. In a recent statement, the Deputy First Minister stated our intention to consider the matter again, and we are now in the very early stages of doing so. Indeed, stakeholder organisations such as Scottish Health Action on Alcohol Problems, Alcohol Focus Scotland and others have called on us to have a look at the issue again, too, and to consider whether we could raise the levy and ring fence the money raised so that it can be spent in those areas.

It is a perfectly reasonable ask, but we need to balance any such move with the impact on business. You have illustrated very clearly the difficulties of measuring the impact of that and how we ensure that we direct any additional money to the places where it needs to go. That is why I said to Gillian Mackay that I am very open minded on the matter.

If, from your experience in the industry, you have anything that you can tell us, please share it with us. I am really keen to work across Parliament and Government to get this right. It might be that getting it right means not having a levy—but it might also mean that there is a levy. In fact, Alcohol Focus Scotland and others have suggested that it should be around 16p. Some ideas are already being suggested, and we will interrogate all of them and factor them into our thinking on how we move forward.

Yes, thank you.

That discussion was really helpful. I thank Scottish Labour, Scottish National Party and Scottish Green members for their support for the policy. Everyone’s comments on the work that is still to be done, the way in which we fund the sector, and the analysis and work that we must do on a public health levy are not lost on me. I will take them all away as action points.

I want to reassure members on funding. There is record funding of £112 million. I am absolutely committed to ensuring that it will be spent in exactly the right places.

I also want to respond to Tess White’s and Sandesh Gulhane’s remarks querying who might support the policy. We have seen the letter in The Lancet and the comments of the Association of Directors of Public Health north-east that Emma Harper referenced. We have seen the views of the 80 organisations that work with people and support them day in and day out. We have seen case studies such as those that have been carried out by the Simon Community Scotland. We have also seen modelling numbers that tell us that the lives of 156 people have been saved. That is not an insignificant number; it represents 156 loved ones. We should never forget that those are not just numbers; there are people behind them.

I turn to the point about treatment. The 40 per cent drop that we have experienced here has also been experienced in England, and the UK Government is looking at the reasons for that.

It is just not true to say that nothing else has been done on the matter. I will give the committee a list of actions that we are currently progressing to tackle the issues, whether they concern harmful, hazardous or dependent drinkers. We are working with the UK Government to produce new clinical guidelines on alcohol treatment for the whole UK. There is an alcohol brief intervention review and there are national specifications on alcohol and drugs. All ADPs already offer psychological counselling, in-patient alcohol-detox services and access to medication, and most offer community detox, ABIs and alcohol hospital liaison. It is therefore just not true to say that nothing is being done, because all those measures are already in place.

As for the proposed right to addiction recovery bill, for months I have been asking to see details of it, but we have not received them. I generally do not respond to social media comments on Government business, but just last week I did so to our colleague Annie Wells, who asked me whether I would support such a bill. I said that I would be happy to meet her to discuss it. We now have a date for that in the diary. I will be happy to discuss the bill then, but we still need to see the detail to understand what it would do.

I am glad to see that many members here support consideration of a public health levy. Mr Gulhane—some of your colleagues might be a bit disgruntled about your having said that you support that, because many of them do not. I am keen to work with you on all such aspects.

All the organisations that have written to us agree that minimum unit pricing works. They also agree that it is not a silver bullet. It has achieved its aim. Gillian Mackay is right: at the heart of the matter are the people whose lives will be made immeasurably better, and that is why lived and living experience is at the heart of all the work that I will do.

I ask the committee to support the Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Act 2012 (Continuation) Order 2024 and the Alcohol (Minimum Price per Unit) (Scotland) Amendment Order 2024, which seeks to change the level from 50p per unit to 65p per unit. I thank the committee for its deliberations. None of what has been said is lost on me and all of it will inform my work.

We recognise that there is a challenge there and that we must do something about it. I hope that the committee recognises the work that has been done over the past few months, which I have spoken about. The fact that I had a meeting on the subject just yesterday and will have a follow-up meeting with HES next week demonstrates how urgent I think the issue is and our desire to create the circumstances in which we can address it.

It is amazing how, when you come into a new portfolio, you start to see things that are relevant to issues in that portfolio. On a recent trip to Paris, I saw the work that is being done to restore Notre Dame and the apprenticeship programme that has been included in that project. An apprentice who starts their apprenticeship on that project will end it on that project. What a great thing it must be to have on your CV that you have been involved in restoring Notre Dame.

I asked our officials in the Paris office to look at that scheme to find out whether there is any learning that we can take from it on the way in which those apprentices have been engaged. I think that people would like to be able to put on their CV that they had experience of working on Edinburgh castle or the Wallace monument. We need to make that offer much more exciting for people who might not think about such careers when they embark on their further or higher education learning, or when they look for jobs and apprenticeships. By making that offer more exciting, we can encourage people to think about such a career, the opportunities that it provides and the prestige that it brings with it.

It is not simply a case of filling the gaps in a perfunctory way; we need to make the offer much more attractive to encourage people to come into the sector. We are all picking up on the need for us to work on that.

Thank you, convener, and please pass on my best wishes to both Mark and Clare.

Thank you for inviting me to give evidence to the committee. As the “Our Past, Our Future” strategy makes clear, our historic environment is a national asset that is intrinsically linked to our sense of self and national identity. It is of great importance to Scotland. I know from the many questions that I have had from members over the past few weeks that there is a warm place in everyone’s heart for the lovely attractions and assets that they have in their constituencies. The strategy acknowledges just how unique and diverse Scotland’s historic environment sector is. Our historic environment is of international significance, designated through our world heritage sites and iconic heritage attractions that are instantly recognisable and eternally memorable.

It is important to reflect back on Scotland’s first historic environment strategy, “Our Place in Time: The Historic Environment Strategy for Scotland”, which was published in 2014. “Our Place in Time” has had a positive impact on the awareness and perceptions of the priorities within and outside the historic environment sector. The strategy provides a framework around which Historic Environment Scotland and other stakeholders have aligned strategic planning and developed other strategies. However, we can all recognise that, since it was published, a lot has changed, with the sector facing fresh challenges and opportunities.

“Our Past, Our Future” focuses on priorities that have been identified through extensive consultation with the historic environment and cross-cutting sectors, as well as communities across Scotland. You will not be surprised to hear from me, as a former equalities minister, that participation is a key element of all that work. It is telling that those key priorities—sourced from active engagement with the sector—align with the Scottish Government’s national goals and targets, which include delivering net zero, building a wellbeing economy and creating more resilient, inclusive and sustainable communities and places.

I turn now to the challenges. We all recognise the challenges around climate change, the shortage of traditional skills and the current economic climate. The need to address skills shortages in the historic environment sector has become even more important and pressing. We are all too aware of the high-level masonry issues that we have been facing as a result of worsening climate change, and we need traditional skills to maintain and retrofit our traditional buildings if we are to achieve our net zero targets and maintain our building stock for the future. A lot of good work is being undertaken in that area, including on the make your mark volunteering campaign and at the Ridge in Dunbar.

To ensure that Scotland’s built heritage is sustainable and promotes wellbeing, we will continue to engage with the sector to understand the ways in which we can support actions on our national targets.

The Scottish Government continues to recognise the important contribution that the heritage sector makes to our economy and our wellbeing. Therefore, against the challenges of the financial backdrop, we will continue to provide funding to the sector through our sponsorship of Historic Environment Scotland to support those key areas.

Collaboration—how we work together on the whole agenda—is a key part of the work that I want to do and the work that was done in the past. It is important that we work together to create opportunities to sustain and enhance the benefits that our nation’s heritage creates and ensure that the historic environment is at the centre of our national life. My recent work with the convener of the wellbeing board of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities is an example of that collaboration.

We must communicate better the significance of our historic environment and the contribution that the sector makes to the economy and the wellbeing of Scotland’s people. The strategy was created by everyone for everyone and we all have our part to play in its delivery. The “Our Past, Our Future” strategy does not exist in isolation. It fits within the context of a number of other Scottish Government strategies, such as the programme for government, the national planning framework 4 and the culture strategy. However, we can do more to mainstream “Our Past, Our Future” across other areas of Government, and we will. I have taken that up as a personal action.

It is important that the challenges and opportunities around delivering “Our Past, Our Future” are all considered. That is why I am pleased to be here for the open discussion and any questions.

A combination of things are going on. We have skills challenges in this area generally. One issue that has arisen is the need to create opportunities for young people and other people to develop such skills. Just yesterday, Graeme Dey and I met the Historic Environment Scotland team, because, over the past few months, his officials and my officials have been working to address all the concerns that have been raised. Following the Withers review and the other work that Graeme Dey spoke about in his recent statement on developing skills and the skills landscape, we have been working to find ways in which we can tackle some of those challenges.

When it comes to apprenticeships for those areas, particularly stonemasonry, we are talking about a maximum of 30 apprentices a year, and there are 27 right now. We are working closely with Skills Development Scotland, the Scottish Funding Council and the Construction Industry Training Board to develop the framework. A bit of work is being done right now on the qualification framework and whether it reflects professionalism and the way in which we want to hold those skills in our training formats. With the Scottish Qualifications Authority, we have agreed to look at how we develop that professional framework. When the qualifications are of those standards, it makes the whole apprenticeship programme much more attractive for people who seek those skills. That piece of work is being undertaken right now and I had a meeting on that with Graeme Dey just yesterday.

I do not deny that there are challenges, including around how we deliver some of that work in a rural setting. You will know that Historic Environment Scotland is working with CITB and other bodies in Elgin and in Stirling at the Engine Shed, and we have been having a conversation about developing a centre of excellence. Nothing is agreed on that yet, but we are exploring all the ideas that will create the circumstances in which people will be encouraged to come into the roles and the framework for them to have qualifications when they come out on the other side. Over the next few weeks, we will continue those conversations with Mr Dey, his team and HES. I am meeting HES next week to follow up on all that. The issue is live right now. Nothing has been agreed yet, but lots of ideas have been coming in. If you have some of your own, please share them.

I am sure that it did not.

You will not be surprised to hear me say that the current budget round is incredibly tough. However, putting that aside for a second, in 2023-24, the operational budget for HES has risen by 18 per cent to £114.5 million, which shows a level of commitment. The budget for high-level masonry issues has risen dramatically, too. Again, there is a recognition that we need to invest for all of our futures.

We are coming into a new budget round. The draft budget will be published on 19 December, and I am sure that the committee, among many others, will take the opportunity to have its say on that, and I encourage you to do so.

You made a point about sponsorship. There is a bit of work to be done on that. I know that the committee has asked questions about the issue over the past few weeks and has been thinking about how we can maximise income. Interestingly, HES has suggested that it has made a very strong recovery from Covid, which is good to hear, because it has been hard for many people to recover from Covid. The amount of revenue that it is raising is coming up to previous levels again.

There is one challenge that comes from the way in which HES was set up, because if its revenue goes above a certain amount, that has an impact on the money that it gets from the Government. HES is working on a new plan and a new model for how it does its business. We are looking at ways in which we can build in some flexibility so that it can do more with revenue raising and sponsorship. Various issues can arise from that, but HES has very positive relationships around the world. The “Scottish Connections Framework” is a perfect example of how we can use the number of people who believe that they have Scottish roots—it is 40 million, 50 million or 60 million, depending on who you speak to—and therefore have a connection with Scotland. There are many ways in which we can use that network, but some of that depends on the new business model. We are working with HES on how we can build in flexibility to allow those things to take place.

You mentioned volunteering, which ties into the point that I made to the deputy convener about local communities. Sometimes, local communities are the best custodians of what is on their doorstep, although some communities might not be too sure about what is on their doorstep. When local communities are involved in looking after their local heritage assets, they become the best custodians. We want to encourage and further develop that by working with HES and others to create such opportunities, not just for folk who have a bit of time on their hands but for young people and older people, so that the places are made accessible for all groups, including disability groups.

The number of events that take place in Chatelherault country park, in my constituency, is absolutely unbelievable. Believe it or not, there was a serious issue with badger baiting, but, after we engaged all the primary schools on badger watch, the badger baiting stopped. When communities engage in looking after not just buildings but the land and landscape around them, they become the best guardians of it. We want to encourage much more of that.

I agree that participation is incredibly important. You will know that the strategy was developed over the summer of 2022, and that participation was at the heart of it. It was developed by Historic Environment Scotland, but the Scottish Government, the Built Environment Forum Scotland and many other organisations and people with an interest were also involved.

There was a public consultation at that point, and HES published its “We Asked, You Said, We Did” report, which was a way of conveying to the people who engaged with the consultation process how important their ideas were. In that process, the point was raised about people not knowing what was on their doorstep and getting to know what was on their doorstep.

In my response to the deputy convener, I talked about my intention to work closely with local authorities. Many of the properties that HES looks after are also looked after by local authorities. For instance, Chatelherault country park in my constituency is incredibly well looked after by South Lanarkshire Council. That is one example, but members will all have examples from their constituencies of the partnership between local government and HES and therefore the Scottish Government, which is incredibly important.

One thing that I wanted to do when I came into my current role was to reinvigorate the culture conveners forum. We have done that, and the forum has now met. We decided immediately that we needed to have an event to look at how we work together and the value of culture in all of our lives. That will be called a culture value summit, which is a straightforward name for it, and it will happen in the new year. That is very important.

I am interested in the local authority historic environment group that Alexander Stewart mentioned. I have not heard of that and it has not been mentioned by any of the culture conveners—I think that I met them all in that meeting just a few weeks ago. However, I will pick up the point and see where that group got to.

In big cities such as Edinburgh or Glasgow, the historic environment is everywhere. In fact, most of the authorities in those places work in buildings that are part of the historic environment, because the city chambers are important buildings. However, that comes with challenges when there are issues with the buildings and local authorities are involved in their clean-up and restoration.

That partnership is important to me. I want to strengthen and grow it, but I want to work together much more dynamically to tackle the challenges that are coming down the road and we can do that only in partnership. There is no way that being separate from local government on the issue would deal with those challenges.

I will take away the issue about the local historic environment group and speak to Councillor Maureen Chalmers, with whom I work closely, as she is the chair of the community wellbeing board.

I would always welcome and agree to such an opportunity, but the announcements that we have heard in the past few days on the new immigration measures that the UK Government wants to take will make that process much more difficult. The earnings threshold is a barrier on its own, but the UK Government has just said that it will scrap its list of areas in which there are skills gaps. Therefore, encouraging people from other parts of the world to come to Scotland to work on our amazing assets has just become much harder.

I know that that issue is close to your heart, convener, and to the hearts of many members, not just of the committee but across the chamber.

I gave a bit of an update when I answered Roz McCall’s question yesterday. Seventy buildings were impacted by high-level masonry issues. At this stage, 53 have now opened or partially opened. Historic Environment Scotland confirmed to me that it expects all the inspections and work to be finished by March next year, which is ever closer as we move swiftly through this year.

You asked about analysis. HES constantly analyses and reviews the issue. It has considered different ways to speed up inspection processes and complete more detailed inspections—and, therefore, get more detailed work done. That includes using technology.

I visited Tantallon castle in the summer when it reopened to the public and was shown some of the damage that climate change is doing there. HES has used drones to identify issues that have come up, but getting a person up there has been much more fruitful because, sometimes, the drone does not tell you everything that you can find out by getting human eyes and hands on what it looks and feels like. HES has been doing a lot of that. All the different sites have different needs and issues. HES has been working closely with us and all the sites to identify those issues as quickly as possible, find the remedies to fix them as quickly as possible and get them opened to the public safely.

That work is continuing and HES updates its website constantly with the latest inspection data. I would be happy to give you and the committee that link in order to access that information as it is updated. It is updated quite swiftly, so keeping on top of it all through communications with me is one way, but the other way is the update to the public through its website.