Chamber and committees

The genesis of the community asset transfer process was about assets such as community centres, libraries and so on. It is now moving into a new sphere, part of which is heritage buildings in communities. The Trinity church in Larkhall is a perfect example of that and of a community getting together, holding consultations and deciding what it wants to do with an asset. A few weeks ago, I met Caroline Clark from the National Lottery Heritage Fund. We discussed many such issues and how her organisation aligns its funding and grant-making opportunities for communities.

In some ways, when a property is not in the care of a Government body, it can attract more support. If a property is transferred to a charitable trust or another constituted organisation such as a residents organisation, avenues open up for additional grant funding that does not come through Government bodies. Caroline Clark and Alex Paterson talked about how aligning some of that funding will support people. It is not just about money, however; it is also about the expertise that people need in order to maintain the buildings.

It is one thing to take on a straightforward community centre, but it is another thing to take on, for example, Trinity church in Larkhall, given the stonemasonry and stained-glass window issues there. That takes real expertise. We have been talking about how we use the expertise that is currently in all our bodies to support communities to do such work. Caroline Clark has talked about grant funding being attached to securing expertise—it would not be conditional, but would be about giving people opportunities to access experts in such fields.

On that point, when I met Historic Churches Scotland a few weeks ago, it talked specifically about the expertise in its organisation and how it can engage community groups and charitable trusts in its work so that they can take on buildings and maintain and sustain them using those heritage skills.

It is not flawed. There are current challenges, and challenges on the horizon, in relation to the impact of climate on all our buildings. I explained the situation with Tantallon castle, including the wear on the building and the sea wall and the previous bad repairs, and I take account of that.

I agree with Alex Paterson that preservation is in the DNA of everything that we are doing. It is all about how we maintain, sustain and preserve our cultural heritage for future generations in a sustainable way. That will be different for the different materials that buildings are made from.

I will pick up Neil Bibby’s point about how important skills are for preserving our cultural heritage and taking forward those challenges to resolution. In the past 50 years or so, we have used many different materials in building. We built our cultural heritage from the ground; people built using the things that were around them in their communities. We can go back to ideas around how those buildings and landscapes were created, and we can use traditional ways to preserve them.

We also use innovation. I mentioned the fact that drone footage is used to get to places where it has been difficult to get to, but that is not the be-all and end-all. In some ways, it is not the best way to get a pair of eyes and a pair of hands on crumbling rock or whatever. Preservation is also an issue there.

Keeping buildings wind and watertight is one thing, but creating opportunities in which they can be drivers of change for future generations is another. One example of that is the Burrell Collection in Glasgow, which is in a new building and an old building. The older building was much more solid than the newer building, and challenges came with that. A new hybrid building was created, which the collection is now in. Most of the glass is energy-conserving glass. Not only were the curators excited to show me all the exhibitions—I have been to the Burrell quite a few times; it is one of my favourite places—but it was great to hear from them about how they did that work. They took me up on the roof to see the big array of photovoltaic panels, which, along with the energy-conserving glass, have drastically reduced the museum’s energy bills.

It is not just about making sure that the fabric of the building is wind and watertight and that the building is sustainable for the future; it is about taking opportunities to reduce costs and, therefore, the carbon impact on the environment, and using new technologies to do that. The Burrell won an award for that work, and it has become a bit of an exemplar for other cultural heritage buildings. It can share that experience, and is doing so as we speak.

You cannot just put things in isolation in that sense; they are all connected in different ways. Not only does the Burrell Collection now have a building that will be sustained for many years in the future, but it has also dramatically reduced its energy bills, when energy is probably the biggest cost impact for any of our cultural heritage buildings.

Yes—I think all of that. I have seen community asset transfer used very effectively right across the whole of Scotland, mainly for community assets, but local community groups with some expertise can look after the historic assets in their communities. A properties in care review is happening right now, so extensive work has been done on that aspect. I suppose that HES would say that, if it took more properties into its care, it would mean more responsibility, including financial responsibility; in tight circumstances, that is a difficult thing to do. Again, that is why the review of the operating model becomes more important, because if we can raise more revenue and therefore more investment, it becomes more straightforward to take more properties into care and look after them. Some properties in care are in a perilous state and that is why HES has come in. It is about maintaining and sustaining those properties.

However, there is much more that we can do about community engagement. We have talked about volunteering and how that becomes important. There are lots of places in which communities can be engaged in all this, through community development trusts and historical development trusts, for example. The issue that I raised at the very beginning of the session about participation is important in relation to that too.

One of the issues that we are grappling with right now is in relation to churches. Many churches in small towns, particularly in rural areas, are the cultural heritage of those towns. HES has now engaged a member of staff who is working closely with the Church of Scotland on the challenges that it has and the proposals to dispose some of its historical buildings. An example of that—again, I will take you back to my own constituency—is the Trinity church on Larkhall Main Street, which is an amazing building with an amazing historic stained glass window. The window was removed a few years ago because the stone around it started to degrade and they were worried. There is now a consultation with the community in that area about taking over ownership of that and maintaining it, both as a historic monument and as a community asset. Therefore, it may not be about more properties coming into the care of HES but about sharing the expertise so that communities can look after what is on their doorstep.

That is about looking at how we can do more local community engagement. We will pick up that issue in the culture values summit. How do we engage communities more with what is on their doorstep? How do we get them involved and how do we get them fired up about what is there?

We hear from communities when they find out that an asset is to be closed. That has happened over the past couple of years. There was a bit of an earthquake in Larkhall when the Trinity church went on the list and people said, “We’re not having that”, so we know that we can really engage people, and not just in an emotional way, but in a really committed way. I want to develop work with HES and other cultural organisations to consider how we can do more of that. I think that you are absolutely right.

Schools have a huge role to play in how we educate young people about what is in their local communities. My lifelong interest in empire and slavery, for instance, is because of a primary school visit to the David Livingstone birthplace when I was about 10 years old. I have never lost that interest and now have the honour of taking it forward in the Government. Such things can spark something in a 10-year-old that becomes a lifelong passion; we need to create opportunities that ensure that that happens.

We have lots of wonderful young people and older people engaged in their local community. There are many ways in which we can do that. If you have ideas on how we could do it, particularly in rural settings, please share them. My mind, ears and heart are open to any opportunities that you think we are missing.

For fear of speaking for my other colleagues in Government and because of the rough budget situation that we are going through right now, I will not answer that question, because I do not think that I can answer for other portfolios.

When I came into the job, part of my role was to mainstream culture across the whole of Government. Mainstreaming was one of the roles that I had when I had the equalities and human rights portfolio, and now I see some of my own work coming back to me from other portfolios, which is always a good thing.

Mainstreaming across many parts of Government is not just desirable—it is necessary. From the point of view of net zero, for example, I found that we had to engage with the heat in buildings regulations, which could be a bit dry for most people, because that led straight back to the example that I used of the Burrell Collection and how it has managed to turn around its fortunes. That is one example.

I want opportunities to formalise cross-Government work and I want to include local government. That is why the work with the wellbeing board in the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities is incredibly important. Across the national performance framework, the wellbeing economy work is also of huge interest to me. I do not think that we can have a wellbeing economy without culture being one of its structural mainstays. Their having the opportunity be involved in and experience the imaginative input of something that we deem to be a cultural asset is incredibly important to people’s wellbeing. We saw that during the pandemic, when people found interesting and innovative ways of doing their daily walks, for example. That links wellbeing straight into health and health outcomes.

Many of the sites that I have visited have had lots of incidental things going on for their local communities. For example, one site that I visited recently has an older people’s rambling group. I asked people what they get from that, and they said that it keeps them mobile, maintains good mental health, maintains social connection and reduces social isolation and loneliness. You can see right there how mainstreaming is incredibly important in everything that we do across the whole of Government.

Mainstreaming also makes implementation important. Jim Fairlie will be interested in this example of mainstreaming. When stakeholders raised concerns about rural and agricultural policy areas, we worked closely with them on the draft Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill. Those conversations led to the inclusion of the historic environment in the bill; it would probably never have been included otherwise. Mr Fairlie will know from his background how important cultural heritage is and how farmers are growing or allowing grazing around sites. That engagement enabled us to work on the bill and to preserve historic and cultural assets through it. That is an example of how mainstreaming is important in the day-to-day work of creating new legislation and regulation.

That is one aspect. For me, another aspect is health and wellbeing. We cannot work without having mental health colleagues, wellbeing colleagues from Mr Gray’s team and colleagues from the health team working with us, because that can be transformational for people’s lives.

Much of the work that has been done at some of those sites has been done with local communities. It is about asking what people want to see from a historic site and what access they would like. It is about enabling them to understand why access is or is not safe, and asking them how they view the site.

When I was at Tantallon castle, there were many members of the public there. Some—like me—had climbed up to the parapet to get a view of the damage that can be seen coming in off the sea. Many of those people said that it was a great place to visit. It is interesting that I have found that tourists have known a bit more about local sites than local people have. There is educational work to do on what is on people’s doorsteps and how important it is.

During the pandemic, such sites became really important for people. Their daily walk was to those sites. It was about getting to know what is in their community. That is really important.

In my opening remarks, I spoke about participation, how we work with local communities to inform them about what is happening with inspections, how we are reopening sites and making them safe, and how people can use them in a safe way.

That is not a term that I have ever used or one that I have heard since I came into the job in March. I have heard it spoken about, but not by people who manage the sites.

There is a lot of positivity. There are challenges, but there are also many opportunities. It is about how we use those opportunities to give people a sense of their place in their own communities and to put Scotland on the international stage.

In my opening remarks, I mentioned how Scotland is viewed. Everybody knows Edinburgh castle, Stirling castle and the Wallace monument—the iconic places—but some people do not know what is on their own doorstep. Working with local people is important for that.

I do not hear that there should be managed decline. The attitude is very positive, and there are opportunities to raise awareness of what is happening on all the sites and to use them as exemplars.

Tantallon castle is a tangible example of that. When I was there, we talked about repairs that had been done in the past and the methods that were used to make those repairs, which involved quite a rough-looking cement. The sandstone around the cement had degraded and worn away, and big chunks of cement were sticking out. That was being looked at. That did not seem to me to be managed decline; it seemed to be about securing the site for the future and using it to the best of our abilities.

The engagement of a data analyst on 13 November is the answer to your question. There was recognition that there is lots of data, but there are issues about how it ties together and can be used to focus resources, time and energy, or to show that there is a gap that needs to be filled. HES will monitor that and report to the Government and to the committee: you have the role of being a monitoring body, and you do it very well.

Another issue is who is included and how we create inclusive environments. One aspect of that is about making physical assets accessible. You will have noticed that all the websites and all the plans and updates that we have published are available in easy read, Gaelic and other formats in order to increase inclusion. That is perhaps where some of the data gaps exist, in as much as it is easy to see a physical barrier, but it is not easy to see the non-physical barriers and to know how to tackle them.

I put a lot of stock in the new person who is doing the data analysis. When I was equalities minister, I would have been unable to move forward with many actions that I took without underpinning data and knowing what it told us about where the gaps were and how to resolve them. I look forward to hearing the first update from that person, but we should let him get his feet under the table, as he has only been there a few weeks.

There is not enough time.

Any positive approach is possible. I suspect that HES’s imagination has been tempered by the current legal set-up for its operating model. From 2024-25, it will have some flexibility in that, which might open the Pandora’s box of imagination about how we can use all the assets.

I hear you on the diaspora and the Hanseatic league and the links that we have with other nations. You also mentioned China. Our new Scottish connections framework is a great vehicle for using some of the examples that you just spoke about, raising the market profile and using all the iconic backdrops that HES has for revenue raising, sponsorship and fundraising. That might involve clans coming back and taking some responsibility for funding and supporting cultural heritage to which they are connected.

There is a rich seam in that suggestion that can certainly be mined. I intend to do that. We need to settle the issue of the operating model to allow us to be as adventurous and imaginative as possible. I am keen to do that as well. An action for me from this meeting will be to sit down with the Scottish connections team and consider how we can use the work that it is doing on the diaspora to do that with some of the iconic and perhaps not-so-iconic places.

You asked about a complete audit, Mr Brown. I will have to go back and check on that. I think that HES audits all the time. I think that it keeps track of sites all the time, but perhaps the audit that you are thinking about—you can correct me if I am wrong—is about looking at opportunities for fresh ways to use them. You are nodding, so I will take that away as an action.

It has nothing to do with last week’s committee meeting, but Alex Paterson has decided to move on and there is an opportunity for a new chief executive officer to come in. Fresh leadership and a fresh pair of eyes, might, together with the new operating model, provide an opportunity to use some of the ideas that are around to realise “Our Past, Our Future” in all the wonderful assets that we have.

I put on record my thanks to Alex Paterson for the work that he has done, because, through very difficult circumstances over the past few years, he has managed to keep the organisation moving. However, change always presents opportunities and those opportunities should be positive.