Chamber and committees

To come back on the first point, there has been no change. We have always said that we would wish to close the attainment gap with substantial elimination by 2026, so that was the policy and it remains the policy.

I referenced the NIF because you have rightly said in the past that we have focused on some measures but not mentioned others.Therefore, I would point to the numbers that are in the NIF and where we would want to see those.

Will we get to a point where it is utterly eliminated, where I look at what has happened in the NIF and there is zero on all those measures? In reality, in an education system, I think that it would be exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, to get to the point of zero. However, we are looking to substantially eliminate that gap and get it down as close to zero as possible. That may vary from measure to measure, because they are measuring very different aspects.

If you will forgive me, I will not be drawn on what that number is, but I think that there are 11 old measures in the NIF, and we have included some more, so the number will vary from measure to measure. However, we are now seeing progress and recovery. We are not at the point of substantial elimination but, for example, if the stretch aims for primary schools were delivered and progress continued—that is an “if”, because stretch aims are supposed to be exceptionally challenging—there would be a substantial elimination of the poverty-related attainment gap in primary schools by 2026. I hope that that gives an example of a trajectory for that happening in primary schools, but I appreciate that the trajectory in other areas is more challenging.

I point to the section at the end of my introductory remarks. If Mr Kerr is suggesting that we have not increased the budget by enough, he should please feel free to suggest how much it should be increased by and where that money should come from. We are in difficult financial circumstances and, within Government, we have seen a real recognition of that and of our ability to increase the colleges budget. If you do not feel that it is sufficient, Mr Kerr, I would be more than happy to know how much you think it should increase by—

—as you always are. I will certainly ensure that Mr Hepburn keeps the committee updated on the collection of data as we move forward.

Despite the way that it is often portrayed, a great deal of success is happening in Scottish education. When we look at the number of qualifications received at the last results day, we see near-record highs, and the number of young people going to positive destinations when they leave school is also at a near-record high. I think that it would be a grave misinterpretation to say that there is not success within the education system, because the number of young people who are going to positive destinations suggests that there is.

Again, I would push back on the suggestion that the OECD said that Scottish education is in crisis, because that is not what its report said, and that is not what the International Council of Education Advisors said, either.

There is a lot to commend in Scottish education. One of the aspects that came from the international council when I discussed the matter with it was that we should look to reform but that we should also look at continuous improvement. That means looking at how we challenge ourselves to learn the lessons of what happened during Covid and at how we challenge ourselves to move to the next level. It does not mean getting to a point at which we are in a reform process that throws out what already happens in Scottish education. A lot of good happens in education.

I do not accept the premise of the question that the reform process was built in because we were in crisis, because I do not recognise that in the recommendations of the OECD or in the work from the international council. They did say that we can improve, but I do not think that there is any education system in Europe or elsewhere that should not challenge itself to improve. That is what the reform process is about. Scottish education is in good shape—as the information on exam results and positive destinations shows—but are there ways that we can improve our system? Of course, there are. That is why the reform process was brought in.

There are a number of areas in which Colleges Scotland has made proposals for the financial year that we are in and moving forward. Between the Government and the SFC, which allocates the expenditure, we are looking to ensure that there are increased flexibilities around the budget, such as not being as direct about how the budgets are spent to the same proportion. It is about how colleges can get a little bit of flexibility. That is not in relation to the entire budget but around a pretty substantial proportion of it.

I genuinely think that Colleges Scotland and the Government have been working well together to look at the flexibilities. We are very open to that. Mr Hepburn and I have had a number of conversations with Colleges Scotland, and officials frequently have similar conversations, as does the SFC. It is one of those areas in which we can assist colleges and give them the flexibility to deliver in a really tight financial situation. I do not think that there is any difference of opinion between the Government, the SFC and Colleges Scotland about the need for that, and we are all keen to move forward with that.

I do not recognise that figure, but we have an important piece of work going on—yes, within the SQA and Education Scotland—and there is also further funding for the reform package in Government to allow us to carry out that reform. When it comes to the money for the SQA and Education Scotland, clearly, they must still carry out the tasks and functions that they have as we go through that process.

No decisions have been taken on how the money will be allocated. We are keen to assist the college sector with flexibility, as I mentioned, and with any need for colleges to transition their offer so that they provide the right curriculum and so forth. The Scottish Funding Council will work with the sector to provide draft allocations. There has not been a decision on that, and we will work closely with the Funding Council on ministerial direction and priorities of travel but the allocations are for it to make.

We have seen an increase from the RSR. I hope that we can ensure that college funding is maintained into the future, but we need to come to that year by year, as we do for everything. The RSR is the long-term forecast that we have at the moment and we are cognisant of the fact that a number of changes that colleges need to consider, whether on the design of curriculum or workforce requirements, require them to have that long-term view. The RSR is still our long-term forecast for budgets, and we will work with the college sector on that.

On the different rates, which I have seen, further education and higher education are very different sectors and are funded in different ways. The ability of the college sector to seek other sources of funding is exceedingly different from that of universities. Therefore, the comparisons are a bit too simplistic, but, as the Funding Council said, we need to understand those figures better. I am happy for the Funding Council to continue to investigate that.

The fact that we have been able to increase the college budget by £26 million demonstrates the Government’s awareness of the important role that colleges have. Bob Doris is right to point out the number of young people—and, indeed, adult learners—who use further education to then move on to university or, indeed, complete higher education within the college sector.

There are a number of ways in which the college sector can deliver for people who are furthest away from the labour market all the way up to those who are taking degrees. Colleges’ flexibility and their determination to have an offer for many different demographics is a real testament to their ability to innovate and move forward with where the skills agenda needs to be. That demonstrates a real willingness to perform in that area, and colleges do so well.