Chamber and committees

We look at the NIF—I know that we have had discussions on this in the past because you have challenged me, quite rightly, on the fact that my focus is within primary schools rather than on different measurements, but there is a framework in the NIF around measurements of the poverty-related attainment gap. We need to see a full change happening across those measurements. There have been a number of measurements whereby we have seen an improvement; there have been a small number whereby we have not seen any improvement; and there have been a number whereby things have kind of stayed the same.

—and where that should come from.

It is, indeed, your opinion, which you are entitled to—

Are you asking how long the Hayward review will take?

Without attempting to pass on that and not give you an answer, I point out that Professor Hayward is independent of Government, so what we will get from Professor Hayward’s review is up to Professor Hayward. She is clearly going through significant consultations. We moved the timeline for the review slightly so that her final report will come out in May, but that was to ensure that we completed the national discussion and allowed her to have the information in relation to that. That was the reason why the publication date has been put back—I think, from memory—by three months.

Clearly, the speed of implementation very much depends on what Professor Hayward comes up with. If she recommends minor changes, they can be made reasonably quickly; if she recommends really substantive changes to the system, those will, quite rightly, take longer. For example, her recommendations might have implications for teacher workload or for the number of teachers who are required to carry out things in the senior phase. I am genuinely not trying to be obtuse in my answer but, until I know what she is going to recommend, I am unable to say how long it will take for that to come into force.

I am keen to see progress, because the experience over Covid and some of the initial work that is coming out of the Hayward review demonstrate that there are different ways in which we can measure success and attainment within schools, compared with what we currently have. Genuinely, until I see what she comes back with, I am unable to say how long implementation might take, because it could be a substantial and significant piece of work. Clearly, we would have to work—not just, but particularly—with teachers on the implementation. Those things can go wrong when the implications for different parts of the system are not taken into account, and the most obvious implication is around teacher workload.

There is no freeze on apprenticeships—

There is what the Government can do and there is what institutions can do, but I absolutely assure you that we are very cognisant of the risks that might come from, for example, a reduction in the number of Chinese students. As I said, the situation varies quite dramatically from institution to institution.

I take the point. It is important that we have deadlines to drive that forward, but I also hear clearly from those in the system that there is a real need for us to look at how much change the system can cope with at once.

A lot of consultation is going on at the moment, following the completion of the national discussion, which was an important factor in forming an understanding of where Hayward and other parts of the reform process might go. For example, there is no point in defining the way that we do qualifications and assessments before we look at what we want from Scottish education.

The other aspect, which I will stick closely to, is that I have absolutely no problem in defending something taking a bit more time if what I get as part of the reform process is not as radical a reform as I want. If material comes back that does not deliver on what I want to see, I will be up front and say that we will take more time, because it must be genuine reform. If I am not happy with some of the proposals, it is better that I do that rather than accept what comes from the first round of proposals, knowing that it does not deliver the reform that I want.

There is a real urgency for us to get on with the reforms, but there is also a need for us to do it in a timely manner and to bear in mind how much is going on in the education system as we ask it to consult on the national discussion, the Hayward review and other aspects.

We have ensured that the budget settlement that we have given allows the money that comes from the Scottish Government to be protected. Some research money comes from outwith the Scottish Government, from UK funding, and that is obviously not for the Scottish Government to direct or influence. Clearly, we keep close contact with universities so that we have an understanding of what we can do to support research.

The fact that we have been able to uplift Scottish Government funding for research is a testament to the fact that we are very keen to ensure we protect the well-respected research that happens in universities.

Those decisions are taken by—