Chamber and committees

Changes to teacher contracts are an issue for the Scottish Negotiating Committee for Teachers to look at. The Government is part of that committee, but it is only one part, quite rightly. The SNCT meets regularly. Unsurprisingly, the SNCT agenda is currently taken up by the teachers’ pay dispute although we still are still having on-going bilateral discussions with teaching unions as well as through the SNCT about a number of issues such as workforce, workload, the impacts on staff and their mental health and wellbeing and so on.

We have clearly laid out that we would withhold the last tranche of funding if councils do not follow through. That is important. Clearly, that will have implications for councils, which is the whole point of having a system that attempts to prevent councils from reducing teacher numbers.

That is not a blanket approach. There may be reasons why teacher numbers go down, in which case there would not be any financial penalties for local authorities. We have been very clear, right from the start, that there will be financial penalties if councils are seen to take strategic decisions to reduce teacher numbers. That will have implications for councils.

What was the alternative to protect teacher numbers? We tried very hard with local authorities to find out what that would be, but that was a challenging conversation and we were unable to come to any conclusion, so I had to take the action that I took. There is no alternative that I have in front of me or that has been presented to me that would have protected teacher numbers.

I will make a final point. We concluded the budget process yesterday. At no point in that process did any Opposition party come forward with costed plans on how to increase the amount that is given to local government, if they wanted that. There are more demands for spending money but few to no suggestions about where that money would come from. I am afraid that the reality of the situation is that there is a lack of alternatives.

There was not just one announcement but a series of announcements of the changes that we had to make. Those are the types of challenges that the Deputy First Minister has understandably made to Cabinet colleagues to see what could be done to initiate savings.

For next year, the £123 million comes from the education and skills budget.

But then you have to understand the consequences of that, Mr Kerr.

With the greatest respect, Mr Kerr, I say to you that for the entirety of the teachers’ pay dispute I have said that, if the money is to be increased, that money will have to come from somewhere else. I genuinely do not know how that is a surprise to you—the balance has to be found within the budget.

—and that has consequences—

Certainly. I totally appreciate that the work for the budget proposals that come from local authorities goes on for a number of months before anything goes to the councils themselves. I go back to the point that the teacher census comes out at the start of December. That was when we had the information that showed the reduction in teacher numbers. I completely appreciate that councils had been working on it, but the material and information came out in December, which is when we began immediately to take action.

I am conscious of the fact that we have said previously that we would make the announcement on the next stage of the learning estate investment programme. I have been looking at that very carefully, and I hope to make the announcement soon. It would be fair to say that a number of local authorities have come forward with proposals, all of which are of good quality and that fulfil the criteria, so I am giving the matter due and serious consideration. I appreciate that my taking some more time to look at that is difficult for councils, but I hope that they appreciate that it is because I recognise the real significance to them of the decisions that we would take and because of the number of proposals that came in.

Letters went from me to COSLA straight after the teacher census, so no, Mr Marra. I think that you are trying to suggest something. The discussions about that started right after the teacher census. I point out that teacher numbers are still at a near record high in Scotland.