Chamber and committees

Are there any other brief comments on that?

What would that look like? Would there be a requirement in the plan to deal with public participation and engagement? As I mentioned, the 2019 act had at its heart a specific requirement for a citizens assembly, but that is only one way to cut it with regard to public engagement. I am interested in your thoughts about how we cement public engagement in the plan as we move forward.

I want to pin things down a bit more. Are you saying that you would be happy for a draft budget to be presented alongside a draft plan, because you cannot finalise a plan until you have finalised a budget? There is a chicken-and-egg element. What is helpful when you are making decisions about the budget in line with the action that might be possible, without plans being completely finalised ahead of setting the budget, if you know what I mean? It is very much a chicken-and-egg situation.

Yes. I want to ask Cornilius Chikwama about Audit Scotland’s view on where the Scottish Government is. Audit Scotland produced a report some time ago that looked at the need for effective assurance, enhanced governance and workforce planning within the director general for net zero’s area. This meeting is an opportunity to reflect on whether governance is set up correctly in relation to the bill. Does Audit Scotland have concerns about progress in that regard, or are you content with the fact that the Government is taking on the reforms that you have highlighted?

I think that all the witnesses are making the point that, in some form or other, alignment between UK plans and devolved Administration plans is important. I am thinking about whether there are other ways to cut that.

Under the bill, the plan and the budgets are set at the beginning of a parliamentary session. Obviously, the Westminster Government is on a different timescale, but could there be a point where there is an update or a report in Scotland following the publication of a UK budget or plan? I am thinking about ways in which you could align the dates—you could align them entirely or information from a UK plan could be fed into devolved plans. I do not know. On a practical level, how do you get that kind of alignment? Is it a straight choice about whether to align the dates or not?

No. Are there any other comments?

From the climate science perspective?

To wrap up the conversation, it seems that you are talking about a dynamic reporting situation. Climate science might change within a five-year period; the financial situation for UK devolved Administrations might change dramatically; we might make less progress on our plans than we thought would be possible; and there might also be a UK plan that increases, or does not increase, our ambition.

You already brought up all those circumstances in your evidence. Would they trigger an update report, a rethink or a section 36 report? Do we need some dynamism in reporting and in the updates to plans?

In evidence the other week, we heard about the legislation in Ireland, where the sources of advice and guidance are drawn quite widely. The Northern Ireland Government can take advice from the Republic of Ireland Climate Change Advisory Council and other sources of information as well.

I move on to public engagement. The Climate Change (Emissions Reduction Targets) (Scotland) Act 2019 contained a requirement to hold a one-off, stand-alone climate assembly. I am interested in hearing from local government colleagues about the linkage between the Scottish Government’s work on behaviour change and support for communities that are driving action on the ground. A reflection on where that currently sits would be useful.

I would also like to hear any wider reflections on whether there is anything else that should be in the bill, or any proposed changes that are currently in it, that could drive more public engagement work with communities. Perhaps Claudia Cowie and Alison Leslie can start with their impressions of how climate action planning is landing in communities. Are we fully utilising the resources of communities in that regard?

We have received evidence from the CCC and other bodies about the timing of the setting of the draft carbon budget and whether the draft plan should be produced alongside that or at a later date. Do you have a view on the timing? Should the two come together? What information should be presented to the Parliament to allow us to set a carbon budget?