Chamber and committees

Thank you. That was very helpful. Indeed, I am sure that I speak on behalf of the committee in saying that all your evidence has been helpful. Without further ado, I will terminate the public session of the committee, to allow our witnesses and the official report staff to leave. We will reconvene at noon.

I am trying to get a handle on that, because it is fundamental to the issue that we are discussing, which is about knowing where public money is going and how it is being spent—or invested, depending on how you wish to describe it.

You have said that

“In determining its budget proposals, the Scottish Government will need to have a clear understanding of how it plans to transition from its initial financial response to more of a recovery phase.”

You go on to discuss continuing uncertainties during the pandemic and the need for the Scottish Government to maintain

“a flexible approach to its financial planning”.

How can Scottish ministers grapple with that? At one point you are looking for more certainty in understanding the transition, but at another you are trying to enable flexibility. How can we square that circle?

You say:

“The UK position is a source of uncertainty for the Scottish budget”

and you go on to say that

“The Scottish Government has been informed of a further £175 million to be allocated. However, these consequentials will not be confirmed until the UK Government’s supplementary estimates are published early in 2022.”

What kind of difficulties does that cause for the Scottish Government?

In the report, you say that although addressing the pandemic was a clear priority, the Scottish Government should not deflect from some of its longer-term goals, such as addressing climate change. However, some of the measures to tackle Covid will not help us to meet the climate change goals. One thinks of the thousands of tonnes of personal protective equipment that have gone to landfill over the past 18 months. How can the Scottish Government address that, given that the pandemic is clearly the number 1 issue? How can the Government respond more effectively to the longer-term issues of climate change without having to compromise on addressing issues relating to the pandemic?

Thank you very much for your opening statement. In time-honoured fashion, I will start with some questions before opening questions up to colleagues around the table.

You have said that transparency around what is classed as Covid-19 spending across Government remains

“challenging in a fast-moving and unpredictable environment.”

Can you give me an example of where spending is ambiguous and could be better explained?

I have a final question before I open up the meeting to questions from committee members.

You note in your briefing that this committee’s predecessor committee

“recommended that the incoming Committee considers inviting the Scottish Fiscal Commission ... to publish a long-term fiscal sustainability report at least once during each session of the Parliament.”

When, during this session, would that be most appropriate?

I think that we will all take the fifth on that one.

Well done, cabinet secretary, you have responded to more than 30 questions from the committee. However, we are still within time, so I will ask some short questions to finish off.

Audit Scotland has said that there are inherent challenges in delivering an outcome-based approach. For example, Audit Scotland states:

“It is difficult to separate out what impact public services have on outcomes, as many factors are outside the direct control of the public sector.”

Audit Scotland says that effective joined-up working, early planning and an understanding of the evidence and its gaps could all help to resolve the issue. How can those gaps be closed so that we have a much fairer picture?

How do you weigh the NPF relative to other areas? If indicators are worsening, improving or maintaining their position—whatever it happens to be—how do you decide that additional resource might have to be shifted from A to B to address matters?

Good morning, and welcome to the fifth meeting in 2021 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. We have received apologies from Liz Smith, so Tess White is attending as her substitute for the Conservatives. I welcome Tess to the meeting. As this is the first time that she has joined us, I invite her to declare any relevant interests.