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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 28 November 2024
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Displaying 2685 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 5 December 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I must apologise for shuffling my papers while you were speaking; I was listening to you, but I was trying to find a specific page that I cannot seem to find in this massive tome. I annotated the pages that I was going to ask questions on last night, but I seem to have missed that one out, so I apologise for my ceaseless footering.

I cannot find the page, but the question is about your capital plan. If I remember correctly, it seems that you will invest something like £787,000 in capital during the next year, which is an increase from more or less zero during the past year or two. Can you talk us through that investment and tell us what you intend to deliver with it?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Revenue Scotland

Meeting date: 5 December 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 32nd meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. We have one public item on the agenda, which is the first annual evidence-taking session with representatives from Revenue Scotland on how it fulfils its functions. We are joined by Elaine Lorimer, Revenue Scotland’s chief executive, and Aidan O’Carroll, its chair.

Before I wish the witnesses good morning, I should say that I was privileged to be invited to host a reception for Revenue Scotland in committee room 3 a couple of weeks ago. I thought that it was a very successful and enjoyable meeting. I was sorry that Elaine Lorimer was unable to make it that night due to illness, because she missed a very interesting event.

I invite Aidan O’Carroll to make a short opening statement.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Framework: Independent Report and Review

Meeting date: 21 November 2023

Kenneth Gibson

I could push more on that. It was interesting to see what is the settled status of the Basque Country, regardless of what Government is in power in Madrid. That is not the situation that we have in Scotland.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Framework: Independent Report and Review

Meeting date: 21 November 2023

Kenneth Gibson

To finish up, do you have any more points that you want to make to the committee, in view of the discussion that we have had during the past hour and a half? Is there anything that we have omitted?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Framework: Independent Report and Review

Meeting date: 21 November 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Audrey, the discussion is about the fiscal framework. I know that you had only one hour’s notice of the meeting, but you are moving away a wee bit from the subject matter that we are discussing and deliberating today.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Framework: Independent Report and Review

Meeting date: 21 November 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Thank you very much. I also thank Matthew Elsby and Niall Caldwell for their contributions.

That concludes the evidence on the fiscal framework review, the report and VAT assignment. We will consider the next steps in private at our next meeting. That concludes the public part of today’s meeting. The next item on our agenda will be taken in private.

11:01 Meeting continued in private until 11:11.  

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Interests

Meeting date: 21 November 2023

Kenneth Gibson

Good morning, and welcome to the 30th meeting in 2023 of the Finance and Public Administration Committee. We have received apologies from Michael Marra; Daniel Johnson is attending as his substitute. We have also received apologies from Michelle Thomson; Audrey Nicoll is attending as her substitute. I welcome both to the committee.

As it is Audrey Nicoll’s first time attending the committee, I invite her to declare any interests that are relevant to it.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Framework: Independent Report and Review

Meeting date: 21 November 2023

Kenneth Gibson

You are being diplomatic in the responses that you are giving. It seems to me—correct me if I am wrong—that you were presented with a take-it-or-leave-it situation with little wriggle room. As my mother would say, half a loaf is better than no bread. Was that the kind of approach with which you were presented?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Framework: Independent Report and Review

Meeting date: 21 November 2023

Kenneth Gibson

That is great. My last question is about VAT. As you will be aware, last week we took evidence on VAT assignment; we had a round-table discussion with a number of organisations, including the Scottish Fiscal Commission and Audit Scotland. We had planned a 75-minute session but we took only 50 minutes because it became very clear that no one thinks that VAT assignment is in any way a good idea. I might not be speaking for everyone, although I am pretty sure that I am, but we felt that it was added to the Smith commission so that it could appear that the commission was going to move towards 50 per cent of taxation being devolved at some point and it was thrown in as part of that mix.

However, when we looked at the intricacies of assignation and the nightmare that it would be—HM Revenue and Customs, for example, briefed us on volatility, as did many others—it appeared to us, the Fraser of Allander Institute and the SFC that it was not in Scotland’s interests to secure the assignment of VAT. The volatility would be huge and we could see zero benefits, because we would not have control over the policy or the VAT levels at all. Of course, it was also a way of getting around the fact that, when we were in the European Union, we could not devolve VAT to sub-state legislatures.

Will the Scottish Government abandon the policy of assigning VAT or will it consider whether VAT can potentially be devolved in future? What is the Scottish Government’s position on that? It seems to us that Scottish Government officials have done a lot of work on that over many years. I feel for the people who have been doing that work, but it is a dead end as far as we can see. That is the unanimous view of the committee and, indeed, of the people who participated in last week’s round table.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scottish Fiscal Framework: Independent Report and Review

Meeting date: 21 November 2023

Kenneth Gibson

We have spoken about prudential borrowing over the years. It is available to local authorities, and it has always seemed bizarre to me, as well as many others, that local authorities appear to have more flexibility with borrowing than the Parliament does.