Chamber and committees

Thank you for the question. At the start of it, you mentioned the extent to which access to such courses or activities has been undermined by Covid, and there is no doubt that that has been the case.

Having said that, I had a very good discussion with the Prison Officers Association Scotland, whose representatives said that they felt that, during the pandemic, partly because of its general impact on prisons and activities in them, they had been able to spend more time with prisoners. They felt that that was a useful period of learning for them—there were more one-to-one discussions.

You will know about some other things that we have done—for example, with phones in cells, which have helped during an extraordinary situation. Gyms and other facilities are now open. Although they are still restricted in some ways, they were not open at the time, so there was a big reduction in on-going activities. That was necessary and will continue to happen. For example, we have had recent outbreaks at HMP Perth and HMP Dumfries, which will mean restrictions on communal activities that may include some that you have mentioned.

In general, you are absolutely right. For me, in coming to this, we have to make use of the time that is spent in prison and see how much more effectively it can be used. Prison is an expensive option. It costs £40,000 a year to house a prisoner, and I think that society wants to have a return on that investment. One such return is taking somebody out of society who is a danger to it—I understand that—and there is also the element of punishment, which is reflected in the sentence. However, beyond that, rehabilitation has to be in everyone’s interests, because, in turn, that will lead to lower levels of recidivism and of crime. I think that I am right in saying that we are now seeing those at record low levels. Society wants to see more and more of that.

Around 11.9 per cent of people in Scotland have experienced crime of some description, compared with around 13.5 per cent across the rest of the UK, but that figure is still too high: that is 11 people in 100 experiencing crime. The object of rehabilitation in prison—albeit that sometimes prison is not the best setting in which to achieve it—has to be a serious one. At the start of my term as cabinet secretary, I want to look very profoundly at how we can make sure that that happens.

I know that there are constraints—for example on cash, although we are replacing HMP Barlinnie and HMP Highland and we are doing stuff in the women’s estate. There are physical and monetary constraints on what we can do. However, within those constraints, I want to see how we can make sure of that rehabilitation.

In a previous job, in education, 11 or 12 years ago, I was quite concerned about the number of prisoners whose learning issues—even dyslexia—were undiagnosed when they were at school. It may be that a young person, having had undiagnosed dyslexia, has fallen behind at school, and all sorts of other things might come after that. We might be able to go back to somebody in prison and do the required work, explaining that they had dyslexia as a child, that it gave them problems with reading or writing and that we might now be able to look at how we can remedy that. I think that there is more to be done on the availability of rehabilitative and educational opportunities and on the willingness of prisoners to take up those opportunities, and I concede that those areas have been impacted by the changes that we have had to make due to Covid.

Again, Neil Rennick may have something to add.

Rapiscan is not very good for psychoactive substances, as you will know, and prescription drugs are also an issue. I think that the new machine that is being talked about—that is all I can call it until I get the name of it—is more extensive than that, but it requires a specific licence from the Home Office, so we are seeking that. I think that the Scottish Prison Service is involved in that, and it is not an inexpensive piece of kit.

We do recognise that point but, to go back to one part of your question, if people are presenting with drug addiction issues when they come into the system, that can sometimes be through acquisitive crime to service that drug habit. Somebody has an addiction, and that causes criminal activity. It goes back to Pauline McNeill’s point: we have to try to be radical about how we deal with that if we are to make an impact. To underline the concern that you have expressed, Mr Greene, if somebody comes into the prison and does not have an addiction issue but they go out with one, that is nothing that we want to see.

It is a matter of concern. It is hard to tell what the exact prevalence is, for pretty obvious reasons, I would have thought, but the issue is giving concern to the Prison Service—specifically, from my discussions with the Prison Service and prison officers, when it comes to psychoactive substances. These are not exactly their words, but they will say that, for more traditional drugs, they have a much more straightforward ability to deal with a prisoner. If prisoners take certain drugs, they become drowsy or inactive, sometimes to the detriment of their health in a serious way, whereas psychoactive substances present a whole different set of challenges, and officers are very concerned about that. We are indeed very concerned, and we are looking at new ways to deal with the issue—and, as Pauline McNeill says, we should be doing that.

You have spoken about being frank and talking about the elephant in the room. Let us just see how it plays out. If we come forward with some radical ideas, what level of support will we get to pursue them if we want to seriously deal with the issue, as I certainly do?

During the course of the past hour and a half, you have heard about a number of things that we intend to take forward to address that. That includes doing more on mental health support in prisons and on how entrance into the custody system is triaged, and understanding what is driving people when they come in. You heard a pretty extensive response from the minister about how we are trying to deal with some of the issues concerning women in custody. We have tried to address those issues.

On the things that you have mentioned, which I just discussed beforehand, such as the possibility of somebody going into a prison without an addiction and coming out with one, that horrifies society and it horrifies me. That is not distinctive to this jurisdiction; it happens across the board. Prison governors in England and Wales have stated that it is not possible to have a drug-free prison. I would like to test that to see to what extent it can be achieved. If you have any ideas about how that could be achieved, I would be more than happy to listen. I extend that offer to the committee and everyone else.

In the meantime, we are seeking to deal with the issue through the new equipment that I have mentioned, training for prison officers, which, I concede, has been limited through the pandemic, and other changes to the prison system. We should not accept the presence of drugs in prison as inevitable.

On prisoner safety, the vast majority of prisoners are able to serve their time in relative safety. We already mentioned in response to Mr Findlay’s questions the danger that is represented by criminals who are incarcerated because of violent crime and who are continually willing to perpetrate violent crime. That represents a risk; prison is not a risk-free environment and I am not trying to pretend that it is. It is our job to minimise that risk.

First, I do think that it is an area of concern—I would say that immediately. The extent to which it might be rising or otherwise is of course hard to tell, because the nature of it is secretive: people try to keep it hidden. The fact that we and the Prison Service recognise it as a problem is accepted, I think. Also—and there is a point to saying this—that is no different from other jurisdictions, as I am sure you will know and accept.

The UK Government has undertaken, or authorised, some new equipment in relation to that, but only for certain bodies. Again, it would be useful to get some more background information from the officials—if we could get the name of the particular device. We are looking to get authorisation from the—[Interruption.] No, I do not think it was that one; I think we currently have those. I think it is a new one.

Thanks for the question. I probably cannot answer it fully, but you are absolutely right to say that the protection of the public is the bottom line. We keep people on remand for that reason, and, obviously, there is a risk calculation. The decisions on who to keep on remand are for the courts, not the Government, to make. However, you are right that it would seem to be perfectly legitimate to look at the risks of, say, holding someone on remand because of the fear of non-appearance or other such aspects. It is right to look at the balance of risks. Some of that might require legislation, but some of it could possibly be dealt with just through changes being made to the system. We are very open-minded about that.

The bottom line is that we must see a reduction in the numbers on remand, for the reasons that Jamie Greene mentioned—the harms that are done. I am quite frank about the fact that it is perfectly possible that someone could spend longer on remand—even if they are then found not guilty—than they would have spent in prison had they been found guilty and sentenced. There are different pressures on the system, and we must protect the public—that is the bottom line—but, yes, we should look at these areas.

We will have something to say on that. The Government is looking at the matter with a degree of urgency. Beyond that, I cannot be more specific in advance of the programme for government. Neil Rennick has worked on this for many more years than I have, so he might want to say more about the remand element.

In response to your final point, I revert to what I said earlier: the programme for government will shortly be issued, which will give some timescales for those things. Members will expect there to be a degree of urgency about the way that the Government deals with Lady Dorrian’s suggestions.

The response is multifaceted. Such issues were discussed during the passage of the Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Bill, and are in the continuing remit of the working group on misogyny, led by Baroness Helena Kennedy, which will report during the coming year. We are committed to taking action on that issue very quickly if we get a recommendation from the group to do so.

In addition, I hope that you have seen the work that has been taken forward on forensic medical evidence. I visited a place in Larbert that was much more than a spare room in a police station, as was often the case in the past. We are starting to have dedicated facilities to which people who have been subject to sexual assault and rape can go. Examination is a traumatic experience, whatever the circumstances, but it can be done better. The provision is to be rolled out across the country. There is no obligation on the victim to go through a court process; to some extent, that is still their choice.

Lady Dorrian’s recommendations cover quite a wide area. I am sure that we will come on to issues such as corroboration and the three verdicts, which we have agreed to look at. We intend a whole suite of things to try to address the real problem of violence against women and girls.

I note what Jamie Greene said about civil justice matters, but it might be helpful to hear about some of the work that the minister is considering in relation to women in prison. Before that, however, Neil Rennick might want to say something about the breadth of the work that we are doing.

I will make a couple of points. I am not sure of the word that you used—“revealed” or “discovered”—but the figures were in the legislation when it was passed and were agreed in Parliament. I know that Russell Findlay was not in Parliament at the time, but they were agreed, so the idea that it is a revelation or was unanticipated is not right.

It is the case that there are risks attached to these things, but if we had, because of the backlog, not enough provision left for disposals, that would be a risk for more serious cases. My understanding is that the reduction did not apply to cases involving violence or sexual offences. We were very careful about that, although I was not doing this job at the time. The bottom line is that Covid has meant that we have to balance all sorts of different risks and in this case we got the balance right. I know that Neil Rennick was involved.

Thank you for the question, which I think Neil Rennick would like to comment on, because he has been involved in that for a long time. As you say, the issue has been going on for a long time. We have made substantial progress on it. I think that the number of young people who are in prison is down to the low teens, but that is still too many, as you say. Most recently, I spoke with Community Justice Scotland and Sacro on that issue to see what further can be done. We are looking to take very early action. However, again, it is probably a bit premature to be too specific.

Neil Rennick has been involved in that for far longer than I have, so he might want to say something. It is about taking a whole-system approach. We have done that for a number of years now, but it is about following that right the way through. We have all been aware of particular tragic cases of people in those circumstances, and we are desperately keen to avoid those. To go back to a previous question, the whole-system approach relies on ensuring that the mental health and other support is there as necessary.

Thank you very much, convener, and congratulations on your appointment. I also congratulate members on being appointed to the committee. I look forward to working with the committee in future months, and I am grateful for the opportunity to meet today.

As public health restrictions are further eased and Scotland continues to open up, the criminal justice system is responding to the significant challenges that have resulted from Covid and the necessary public health measures that the Scottish Government has taken. For the important roles that they have played during the pandemic, I thank our justice partners including prison officers, criminal justice social workers, police officers, fire and rescue staff, prosecutors, the courts service and judiciary, our legal profession, the third sector and others. In the short time that I have been in post, I have been impressed by everyone’s hard work and their willingness to come together to mitigate as best we can the pandemic’s consequences and find sometimes creative solutions to the problems that the system has faced. Innovations such as the use of remote jury centres in cinemas—which I have visited—with remote balloting of jurors and the use of online hearings for some court hearings are good examples of the collaborative and innovative approach that has been taken by justice partners.

The Scottish Government has committed to investing £50 million this year to help to drive forward the recover, renew and transform programme. For 2021-22, we have also increased the policing budget by £75.5 million to over £1.3 billion, including one-off funding of £15 million specifically to mitigate the impact of Covid-19 on police finances. That is in line with our commitment to protect the police resource budget in real terms throughout the new session of Parliament, just as we did throughout the previous one. We are beginning to see some optimistic signs as the necessary Covid restrictions are eased with, for example, the announcement by the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service that the number of sheriff solemn cases that were concluded in June exceeded pre-Covid levels.

That said, I recognise that the task that is ahead of us remains significant and I do not underestimate the distress that is caused to the victims of crime by unavoidable delays in cases being resolved. In that respect, this jurisdiction is no different from most others. Continued co-operation across the justice system as a whole will be required for some time to come in order for us to resolve fully the pandemic’s impact, but that task is not only about returning to the way that things were. It is also about thinking how we can do things better, which will mean doing them differently.

Before the recess, I outlined in the chamber how we might do that. The Scottish National Party manifesto set out our vision of where we see Scotland’s criminal justice system being in 2026, and the Scottish Government has already begun the work to deliver those transformational changes across the five years of this session of Parliament. As the committee will understand, there are limitations on what I can say about timescales and the detail of the legislative programme ahead of the First Minister’s statement on the programme for government next week. We will be able to provide further details after next week’s statement and I will get back to the committee in due course with any information that I am unable to pass on directly to members today.

Members will recognise that many of the commitments in the Government’s manifesto—such as the commitments to strengthen the rights and protection of victims, improve public protection and modernise the justice system—will require both primary and secondary legislation. We are also committed to the on-going process of law reform, including through bills proposed by the Scottish Law Commission. As always in justice, we can expect a range of legislation to be considered by this and other committees throughout the Parliament. Of course, committees and members might propose their own bills, too.

A number of the commitments that we have set out for reforming our justice system are shared broadly by other parties in the Parliament. For example, a legal right to anonymity for complainers in sexual offence cases was included in a number of the parties’ manifestos. There is, I believe, quite a lot that we can agree on. There is strong evidence of collaborative working across our justice system and I welcome the opportunity to have collaborative engagement with the committee and other parties in Parliament.

I have already met a number of opposition spokespersons, some of whom are here today. If we can work together, we can bring about the changes that are necessary to transform Scotland’s criminal justice system. I have said before and I am happy to repeat now that I will try to find consensus wherever possible. Although I am sure that there are areas of the Government’s programme that the committee will want to probe and scrutinise, I ask members, where they can, to work constructively with justice ministers over the coming weeks, months and years.

I know that that view is shared by the Minister for Community Safety, Ash Denham, who has been asked by the First Minister to take on a particular role in the portfolio. It might help if the minister was to make some remarks on that. With that, I conclude my opening remarks.

As I have said, we are in a period of relative austerity with regard to budgets, but that is an area where we can potentially unlock other savings and better outcomes. I definitely agree with Mr MacGregor on that. However, I should make it clear that, unlike some other people, we are not looking to have yellow-jacketed chain gangs—that is not what we are about. The question is whether the kinds of disposals that we are talking about are likely to produce better outcomes.

You mentioned finance, and quite rightly so. After all, the disposals need to be expanded, and you have to give the courts that make them the confidence that the provisions are there for them. That requires finance. Of course, if you do it in the right way, the costs will be less than, say, the £40,000 a year and the associated social and other costs of keeping someone in custody. I hope that there will be an expansion in that respect, and I suppose that it is my job in the Cabinet to argue the case for those moneys.