Chamber and committees

I do not want to sound as if I am disagreeing with Mr Rowley in any way, because that is the approach that we are taking, but we express it slightly differently in the legal test of proportionality. If we find ourselves in a situation in which there is not a sustainable legal case to be made for the proportionality of the regulations, the Government will have to deal with that.

There was a lot in that question; Mr Rowley has acutely summarised the dangers and challenges.

As of yesterday, there were 1,581 delayed discharge patients in our hospitals. I know that it is a very controversial issue, but sustained efforts were made to ensure that patients who did not require to be in hospital in spring 2020 were discharged to other settings. If my memory serves me right—Dr Smith might help me out—that number went down to about 700, at its lowest.

Mr Cole-Hamilton and I know what we are debating here.

I want to reflect on that point, in the light of the evidence that the committee has heard this morning. The witnesses added another important element, which was to do with the question whether vaccination certification is being introduced in an environment of trust in society. I think that the evidence generally suggests that there is a high level of trust in Scotland on the way in which Covid-related issues have been handled. It is important that we acknowledge that that backdrop enables such a scheme to be applied in the fashion that I have suggested to the committee.

Obviously, I cannot speak for the Scottish Human Rights Commission, but I absolutely accept the tests that it would place upon us. Such tests matter to the Government.

Mr Cole-Hamilton will be familiar with the Government’s position on the significance of human rights in all our activities. He knows about the legislation that the Government has taken through Parliament—for example, on the incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. That is an illustration of the Government’s commitment to a human rights-based approach. The Covid recovery strategy that the Government is working on focuses on a human rights-based approach, and it will be material to the public inquiry that takes place on Covid issues. I do not in any way dispute the importance and significance of human rights questions.

I agree with Judith Robertson that those questions fundamentally hinge on the question of proportionality. The Government must be able to satisfy itself on the question of proportionality in relation to any measures that it takes forward. As Mr Cole-Hamilton will well know, we also have to satisfy ourselves that we could withstand legal challenge on any of those questions. The Government considers that issue very carefully on all occasions.

In answer to the question about alternatives, the Government considers a range of possible approaches that we might take. Mr Mason invited me to speculate on some of those as alternative measures on the restriction side. There are other arguments in relation to testing approaches, which, I would contend, the Government is using to the best of our ability in order to ensure that those devices are being used. We judge that a Covid certification scheme is a proportionate measure, in addition to the range of other interventions that we are taking to suppress the virus, increase vaccination uptake and protect the public.

There is a fair point to be addressed there, so I will take the issue away and put that into motion.

We gathered that evidence by looking at international experience. We have seen examples in other jurisdictions in which application of a Covid vaccination certification scheme has significantly increased vaccination take-up. Evidence for that has been demonstrated in other jurisdictions. One of the very strong examples is France, but there are other places where that has been the case.

We also looked at the experience that emerged from the studies that Public Health England undertook when the United Kingdom Government was exploring questions around access to events earlier this year. A lot of that research material is charted in the evidence paper that was published yesterday.

I do not have any information on that point, but I make two points to Mr Cole-Hamilton. First, other jurisdictions are bringing in a vaccination-only Covid certification scheme. Secondly, the Government has made a choice about the focus of the scheme, which is primarily to drive an increase in vaccination rates.

They are.

On that point, if we increase uptake of vaccination, we increase the degree of protection in the population, which has the effect of suppressing the circulation of the virus. I suspect that we are about to get into whether the chicken follows the egg or the other way around.