Chamber and committees

You have given us some very good examples. I notice that the OECD witnesses told the committee:

“Scotland is viewed internationally as an example of high performance. When we compare the data with that from other countries, we see that Scotland is above average on a number of indicators, especially the OECD’s new indicator on global competencies.”—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 8 September 2021; c 30.]

It is easy to forget all the positives in the OECD report.

I would like to ask one more question, which is of a more practical nature. It arose from the comments that Fiona Robertson made earlier about the importance of the need to help children to prepare for examinations next spring against the background of the past 18 months or couple of years, when they have not been used to examinations.

It is a long time since I sat my last examination at school—it was five decades ago, I think, which is such a long time ago that dinosaurs were prowling around outside the classroom cave—so my experience might be a little bit dated. However, I guess that the essentials of exams, from a child’s point of view, do not really change: there is work to do to prepare for the exam and there is inducement to work and prepare, and there is also anxiety and a fear factor, which involves the unknown and the consequences of what the child does in the exam. All those elements are constants, irrespective of the passage of time.

How, in practice, can we best equip and prepare our learners—that is the word that we use these days—for examinations, given that they have not been used to doing examinations recently?

I want to make a particular suggestion that might or might not be of use. Is the use of practice specimen papers, which give children the chance to rehearse and try out the process of an examination before sitting the real thing, a structured part of the system these days? It could be helpful, because it would mean that children would not be going in cold to an experience with which they are completely unfamiliar. To me—based on my long-forgotten examination preparation—the fundamental part of preparing yourself for such an experience is actually trying it out in peacetime before the real thing.

I will pass to other colleagues, as I appreciate that time is short. I thank both witnesses for their full answers.

I was heartened by both witnesses’ statements at the outset about the genuine co-operation between all players involved and their positive comments today. That gels with what we heard from young people from Inverness in the session last week who gave positive reports about their experiences in lockdown despite all the difficulties, some of which we have heard about this morning.

Looking to the use of alternative certification alongside examinations in the future, how do you believe we can provide assurance to colleges, universities and employers that, in a system of assessment that does not involve objective examination and in which the testing is done by independent third parties, the qualifications have been earned? How can we avoid any criticism that it is unfair to expect teachers to do anything other than have an optimistic and favourable response to the children who, after all, they have taught, and that, in a sense, they are marking their own jotters? That is not a criticism of the great work that teachers do, but it is a fundamental question. I feel that we have been skirting around it a wee bit because, quite rightly, we have been looking at the difficulties of Covid.

When I was at school—although, as it was such a long time ago, it is probably no longer relevant—examinations were the be-all and end-all. There was no other assessment of any sort. I think that that is the wrong approach, but, if we are to move away from examinations, I would like to hear from our experts how we can demonstrate the bona fides and the robustness of an assessment procedure. How can we get it right for Scotland?

Mr Flanagan said that, although the Scottish Government did not accept the approach to the alternative certification model that the EIS recommended, the outcome was nonetheless satisfactory. I welcome that as a positive comment. With that in mind, I note that the national 5, higher and advanced higher examinations will be held in spring 2022 if the public health advice allows it. The decision will be informed by the public health advice, and course content will be reduced compared with a normal year, with further contingencies if there are further difficulties because of disruption due to Covid.

Mr Flanagan, are you broadly happy with the approach that has been set out, which I have described very briefly? Do you have any particular views and suggestions on how this should operate in 2022?

I understand the line of argument that you are pursuing and which you pursued last year. It did not have a successful outcome, but you had the good grace to acknowledge that there was a good outcome in terms of the overall results and the highers achieved. My understanding is that the Scottish Government placed immense trust in teachers and that it values their work enormously.

Are you still in discussions with the Scottish Government about your suggested tweak or amendment to its approach to S4? Is that an on-going matter of discussion between you and the Scottish Government?

Good morning to both witnesses. Thank you for coming along. I want to pursue the issue that Mr Greer raised, which you have both already covered—namely data and the absence of sufficient data to enable us to determine outcomes and success in three of the four competencies under CFE.

I noticed that you say—I was going to quote from your report, but you have already confirmed it today—that some data is missing: it is absent. I fully accept that it is for Scotland to respond to that, but perhaps you can give us a little more help with identifying what type of data you think that we should be getting. From whom should we get it, and how are other countries dealing with reportage on data to assess how their children are responding in respect of key competencies?

Thank you for that extremely helpful answer. I was interested in your reference to the comments that some parents have made, albeit that it is anecdotal evidence, because it absolutely accords with my impression of listening to parents. They say that their children are well able to express themselves with confidence, and perhaps with greater confidence than was the case when I was at school, although that was a very long time ago.

I was very pleased to hear Beatriz Pont’s very positive remarks about the confidence that is displayed by Scottish young people. That was a tremendously positive comment and is very encouraging. I am afraid that I have to echo Mr Dornan’s remarks—the remarks that another committee member made were inappropriate.

I have no relevant interests to declare, but I place it on the record that, although I no longer practise, I remain on the roll of solicitors that is held by the Law Society of Scotland.

Let me be the first to congratulate you, convener and Kaukab Stewart, on your roles. I am sure that we all look forward to working on the committee, which is important, as you said. I was extremely pleased to hear your undertaking to work in a non-partisan and inclusive fashion.

I seek clarification on one point. It has been 14 years since I had the honour of serving on a parliamentary committee. When I was deputy convener to the late Alex Fergusson on the then Rural Development Committee, his practice was that we, as convener and deputy convener, worked closely together—for example, I attended all the pre-meeting sessions with the clerks, along with Alex Fergusson, and I participated in administrative and other decisions about the committee’s work, including decisions about the terminology of correspondence and the setting of agendas. We never had a cross word. His chairmanship was exemplary and that committee worked in a collegiate fashion, with Elaine Murray from Labour and Mike Rumbles from the Liberals. That committee operated exactly in the way that you described, convener.

We all have our political views, but we want to lay those aside as far as we can for our work on the committee. Convener, will you confirm that your approach will be to work in partnership with Kaukab Stewart in the way that Alex Fergusson worked with me years ago?