Chamber and committees

I agree with all that, but I have two concerns. The first is that, as I understand it, the scheme—although it is flawed—was designed to deal with individuals and not community groups. Perhaps the minister could confirm whether there is anything in the bill that would prevent an individual from applying on behalf of a community group, which is what Jamie Greene’s amendment is proposing. I do not think that there is anything in the bill to prevent that, but that was not the purpose of the scheme.

Although I agree that it is all a bit of a mess, I am not sure that I would be happy to legislate to allow community groups to nominate an individual under the proposed scheme, because they are likely to buy more fireworks because they are for a public display.

I agree that the issue has not been addressed, but do you think that amendment 68 might negate the main purpose of the scheme, albeit that the scheme is flawed?

The cost of the licence was the subject of considerable questioning and debate at stage 1. A number of members were concerned about what the licence fee would be, and I acknowledge that the Government is alive to the issue.

Some people cannot afford to pay even £20 for a licence, but there is agreement that there is a big difference between £20 and £50. I want to probe that issue, as I think that there should be an upper limit in the bill. I have suggested that it should be £25. I admit that the amount is arbitrary, but I thought that going above £25 would make the licence unaffordable for a lot of people.

It concerns me that the scheme is designed to pay for itself yet the committee has no indication of what that looks like, as we do not know how onerous the scheme is. Will it be a tick-box or a video training exercise? That means we cannot imagine what the cost to the Government of running the scheme will be, and we cannot see how it will pay for itself.

For many families who can just about afford to buy fireworks, the additional cost of a licence could be prohibitive. It gives me serious cause for concern that there is nothing in the bill about that. If the principle is to make people think and plan, why should there be a fee at all?

The whole idea is going to fail if we do not get this right, so I want to probe the issue. I will not vote to pass the bill at stage 3 without some serious commitment from the Government to addressing that question.

Amendment 69 seems to be worded better than my amendment in referring to the rate of inflation, so I will be happy to support it if it is moved.

I move amendment 1.

I saw amendment 1 as a probing amendment, and I imagined all the arguments against it. I acknowledge that we would not necessarily want to put it in the bill, and I can see the problems with doing that.

However, I have to confess that the term “running costs” alarms me. The minister is still asking the committee and the Parliament to vote for a bill when we do not know what those running costs will be. The minister does not know what the consultation will bring up. I wonder what ministers would do if the running costs turned out to mean that the fee would be set at £30 or £35, which would be between £20 and the upper limit of £50. Have you thought about that, minister? Where would that leave us?

I would not want to stand in the way of the Government running a consultation, but it concerns me that I would have to act in good faith, because we will not know the result until after we have passed the bill and the Government has run the consultation. What if the running costs of the scheme meant that the fee would be higher than £25? I cannot imagine that ministers would be happy with that. Would you then take the view that you might have to run the scheme at a loss? I would be grateful if you would answer that question, minister.

I endorse what you have said. The visit was fascinating, and I learned a great deal from it. I wrote to the convener, Audrey Nicoll, with three points that came out of the group discussion, which I think the committee should consider further. I can remember two of them. One was about prescriptions not being available on a prisoner’s release. For people who need drugs immediately, that almost puts them back in jail, because they cannot get the drugs on time.

The second point related to Friday release, which has always been an issue. Why can we not do something to ensure that people have the services that they need? We could explore whether there is another way round that issue.

I might need someone to remind me what the third issue was. Oh, I remember what it was. It related to eligibility for work.

It seems that there are commonsense things that we could do to address those issues. We should write to the minister about them to see whether there is a way forward.

Are there any gaps that need to be plugged that will not be addressed by the Online Safety Bill? Some social media companies such as TikTok, which is a big one for younger kids, are meant to have age restrictions, but I am fully aware that it is much harder to catch that when there is live streaming and ways that people can be ingenious around that. As a layperson, it strikes me that those companies are not doing enough, so do we need more laws? I appreciate that TikTok is not a UK-based company, so there would need to be international collaboration.

I have two questions. I want to explore what I have just heard about police officers being the first responders and, in effect, the last resort. What is the answer to that? I also want to ask about the resource impact.

The testimony that the federation has submitted to the committee is very useful but very difficult to read. It amplifies what we have perhaps always known, which is that the police service is the only service that cannot walk away. As a politician, I do not think that that is recognised enough and, however we have arrived at holding this round-table session, it is a crucial issue.

On the part of Professor Heyman’s submission about section 297 of the 2003 act, I do not understand why the police would even be involved when there has been no self-harm and no offence has been committed. Of course, I understand that police officers need to step in if there is harm involved. We have heard from David Hamilton about the long wait times for people to be seen by healthcare staff. It seems as though every other service can say, “We can’t take you,” but the police cannot. It is fundamental that we resolve that.

ACC Hawkins has suggested that multi-agency discussion seems likely, but we have heard that 101 services are now almost exclusively operated by the police. Is such discussion going to lead anywhere? From what I have heard, we need to make specific provision for the police not to always be the service of last resort. I do not know enough about mental health services to know what duties need to be imposed on them. Why should mental health services be able to walk away from a person who is at risk, yet the police cannot?

My question is for ACC Hawkins in the first instance. Do you not feel that, even if there is multi-agency discussion, the police will still be left as the last resort and we will get no further forward?

Would it not make sense for another service to pick that up?

Good morning. I want to explore any gaps that there might be in the law and what lies at the root of all this. I have to say that I found your submission quite shocking; the issue is shocking anyway, although it is perhaps not surprising or shocking to see the extent to which girls and females are the victims and men tend to be the perpetrators. That said, I was surprised to learn in your submission that the amount of

“self-generated Child Sexual Abuse Material”

has gone

“up 374% in the last two years, ... disproportionately affecting ... girls.”

We are talking about imagery that is produced on webcams by children themselves, but adults are taking advantage of it, and the child is still the victim. Can you attempt to give us any insight into why such a rise has happened over the past two years? What do you think is driving children to do this?

I do not know whether this is for you to answer, Professor Heyman, but you say in your submission:

“If no offence has been committed and there is not at immediate risk of life, police may not legally remove them from their home for assessment or safeguarding—from a Place of Safety”.

Can you tell me why the police are involved in cases like that?

That is the obvious thing to have, is it not?