Chamber and committees

I want to make sure that I have understood what we are being asked to do. The Government set out its position in the debate on the extension of time limits due to coronavirus. I think that you also said that there might be a requirement to review the situation in 2026. Does that mean that you have to come to the committee with an SSI each time you want to extend by a year? I am trying to understand the procedure.

It just seems to be a lot slower, from where I am sitting.

Yes. I am really struggling.

Good morning. In response to Sharon Dowey’s line of questioning, Teresa Medhurst said that Kilmarnock has a one-tier staffing structure whereas SPS has two tiers. I was aware of that, and I think that one of the reasons why Serco said that they ran HMP Kilmarnock more cheaply than SPS was that it did not have the same grading structure. Does that mean that the figures that you have outlined incorporate going to a two-tier structure? Presumably, that will be a lower pay or higher pay structure.

Will we just wait and hear when that work is done?

Anyone who has ever appeared in court as a witness will probably have found it quite a traumatic experience. From what you have described, nothing is black and white, and questions can be confusing. Is there a way of drawing a distinction? To me as a layperson, there are people who have had trauma in their lives, there is the trauma of someone who is the victim in the case—the trauma that that person experienced that has to come out—and there is the court experience, which can itself be traumatic. Would you agree that there are different elements to be considered?

You certainly convinced me. You answered a lot of practical questions for me. That is where my line of questioning comes from—trying to apply all this to a system that, as John Watt said, is not the same, in that you all do different things.

My first question is to Laura Buchan from the Crown Office. David Fraser said that we have a court system with limited capacity to prevent what victims always complain about, which is the trauma of bumping into the person they have accused. I have had this conversation with the Lord Advocate at least once: the trauma of victims trying to find out where their cases are is a significant factor. I support all that has been said, but I am a bit concerned that we do not fix the things that are causing lots of trauma. As I said to the earlier panel, I am a layperson trying to understand that there is the trauma that people have had in their lives before they were offended against, there is the trauma of people who have been offended against and there is the trauma of what the system is doing to them. Can anything be done to make the information from the Crown easier to access?

What do you mean by “gateway”? In simple terms, if you are a victim of crime, or even a witness who has been called, should you not be able to call someone easily, get through and ask where your case is likely to be in the pipeline? Is that fair?

Thank you.

Good morning; I apologise for being late.

This question follows on from Katy Clark’s line of questioning. I am trying to apply this to an adversarial court system. What you said about preparation of witnesses and victims makes perfect sense, because we need to have a system that brings out what they have to say. We hear all the time from victims that they did not feel that they had a voice. However, I am interested in applying what you are saying to the court situation, where there are practitioners—the prosecution, the defence and the judge—who should be trauma informed. Is it your expectation that everyone should treat every witness who comes to court in the same way? A prosecutor will not know whether the person had adverse childhood experiences, and some people will not have. Is it your view that a trauma-informed approach should be applied regardless of the circumstances?