Chamber and committees

As a lay person, I do not understand why there could be such a delay in the design of a prison. We have built prisons before. Is there some requirement to build something different here? Why would it take until April to finalise the design before you can put something in the ground?

I really do not doubt that. I am just trying to understand it. Is it 2026, that—

There may not have been the same urgency in other projects. Here, as we have discussed many times, prisoners are putting up with what is a human rights disgrace. I am passionate about this issue, because I am a Glasgow MSP, so I say this openly. I am horrified that in west central Scotland we have people on remand sent to Barlinnie. I do not even fully understand all the complexities of the issue, but I am deeply concerned that it seems to be taking an eternity to build a prison. We have built a lot of prisons before now. I cannot understand what you are telling the committee. Is there something special about this design? I am struggling.

So why do you not? Deep down, I do not understand what the problem is. The design is not going to be available until April. What does that mean in practical terms? When you get the design, does that mean you can go ahead and build it and how long does that take, roughly?

I have a question that relates to one of the Scottish statutory instruments that we will deal with later on. The committee will be asked to vote on an SSI that would extend the time limits for court proceedings. I will just ask you this directly, cabinet secretary. Is one of the reasons why we are being asked to do that that the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service does not have the budget to get nearer to the legal requirements?

Thank you.

Cabinet secretary, I had an exchange with Teresa Medhurst and Gerry O’Donnell about the plans for the new HMP Glasgow in the earlier part of the meeting. I am sure that I do not need to rehearse how urgent the matter is, or the pressure on the prison population, the standards for prisoners and so on. When I tried to press them on the completion date—there has been some press coverage on the issue—it was unclear to the committee what the date is or what the ambition for the date is. Teresa Medhurst said that that will depend on the capital allocation. I am not sure what she meant by that. I presume that she meant that the SPS is in discussion with the Scottish Government about what capital allocation will be available to it in the year of building the prison. It is hard to follow this. Is the Scottish Government prepared to make the capital allocation when it is required for the build of HMP Glasgow?

Thank you. I understand. You were not cabinet secretary at the time, but in the chamber I was particularly exercised, as I have been for some time, about the extension of time limits. The first point to make is that for some reason the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service was, before coronavirus, outwith the time limits of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 by several months. We never got to the bottom of why that was allowed to happen in the first place. That is why I have severe reservations about allowing further extensions, albeit that I accept that progress has been made.

There is one particular debate that I want to highlight and ask you about. I can at least understand where the Government is coming from in relation to solemn proceedings and extending the time limits on first appearance, the preliminary trial and the trial itself. I have never had an explanation about what happens on indictment. The Crown previously had 80 days to prepare a case; under the regulations it will have 320. Why on earth is that? I need to press the matter. If you have not done this, will you do it? The Crown should be pressed to the n^th degree on why it needs 320 days to prepare a case. Compared to other justice services, it has had better settlements over the years on pay, although I know that there is still a significant shortfall. How on earth can it justify asking for the extensions? I am at a loss to understand the preparation of the detail of an accusation in court following indictment. I am very suspicious as to why there is the extension.

The Crown has always complained that 80 days is too tight, but we have always said, as a country, that we are proud of the tight time limits. You might remember the debates that we have had through the years. I need to press you on why the Crown needs an extension to 260 days, until 2026, to prepare cases?

If you get this power and there is national jurisdiction, that is exactly what will happen. Cases will just be tried in courts wherever they can be tried, I presume.

I have a point of clarification about virtual attendance at criminal courts. I have expressed my concern about what I have seen so far. The quality is not good enough to justify that being a replacement for physical attendance. Does this apply to custody courts? My reason for asking is that I thought that the Government had supported my amendment on not having virtual appearances at custody courts. You do not have to answer that today; it is just that I am confused by this.