Chamber and committees

We are always willing, convener, and we want to engage with members collectively and individually on causes that are dear to their hearts. My one word of caution is that I have found that, when people say that something will be simple, it usually never is. However, we are always more than happy to have discussions, and I am sure that members will test the scope of the bill that is in front of us, too.

It will be around £600,000 in start-up costs and £600,000 in recurring costs. It might be a little over that, say, between £600,000 and £650,000. Perhaps you can bear with me while I look at my papers.

Yes—one-off costs will be up to £638,719 while recurring costs will be up to £615,149.

Lady Dorrian’s review was silent on that. The cross-sectoral working group that picked up the work following her review opted for the position, which is also the Government’s current position, that it would be mandatory for the accused in the relevant cases to participate in the pilot. In the same way, when looking at how the justice system operates more broadly, complainers or the accused do not decide which court, at which level or which procedure would be used for their case—that is mandatory. The other practical aspect is that, where we seek the Parliament’s consent to introduce regulation to have a time-limited pilot, any pilot will require a certain number of cases if it is to be effective, particularly if it is to be time-limited.

We have not considered it or consulted on it. It was not part of the Lady Dorrian review or of any of the recommendations that flowed from that, and we have not explored in any way the unintended consequences of such an extension to anonymity.

One of the advantages of removing the not proven verdict is that, in a two-verdict system, people are either guilty or not guilty, and if someone is found to be not guilty, that is clear and unambiguous.

Although, by and large, we do not need legislation to train a workforce, we do need it to helpfully define what we mean by trauma-informed practice and we need legislation that puts duties on courts, the Crown and the police to ensure that trauma-informed practice is woven into their standards of service.

We also need legislation in order to establish a sexual offences court and to establish the rights of complainers when there are applications under section 275 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, to ensure that complainers can access their right to be heard and to legal representation.

I suppose that what I am trying to indicate, Mr Findlay, is that there are broad platforms of reform in the bill that need legislation to drive them forward. I would expect the policy memorandum to speak about the more cultural aspects that underpin legislative change and that, of course, involves training staff.

I assume that your question is broadly focused on the bill as opposed to the pilot. Over the years, the committee will have heard that legislation on its own can never be the single bullet. It was not long ago that the Parliament debated the work that is being done around the trauma-informed skills framework for everybody who works in justice services.

However, at the core of Lady Dorrian’s deliberations and recommendations is the need to make seismic, structural, statutory changes, and those can be seen in the statutory changes in the bill, whether that is the sexual offences court, the automatic right to independent legal representation or the automatic right to anonymity.

We can graft on changes, but the process becomes quite iterative and slow, and there is a degree of frustration in the legal sector and in organisations that represent victims that we have been in the same territory for about 40 years on some of the issues that we are discussing in relation to the experience of complainers and the prevalence and power of rape myths. There have been numerous reports pointing to the substantive problems; now we need to move forward and make substantive changes.

I contend that the legislation does have a degree of specificity around trauma-informed practice. We need to recognise the context in which it will be applied. We often discuss in committee debates how much detail the Parliament wants to put in the bill and how much scope we want to leave for those who have to implement the bill in practice.

On the more general point, I contend that victims’ interests are woven throughout the bill. At its core, every part of the bill is about improving victims’ experience when they are in contact with the criminal justice system, because we recognise that people often become involved as complainers at a time of trauma. The bill makes a number of bold but balanced reforms to reflect victims’ experience.

Mr Findlay asked about part 4. I will not reiterate what I said in response to the convener; the jury reforms are not about increasing or decreasing the number of convictions; they are about achieving transparency and commanding the fullest confidence in the administration of justice and all aspects of our justice system.

The substantial independent Scottish jury research, which took place over two years and involved 900 mock jurors, isolated factors so that the researchers could consider our jury system’s unique aspects. The research looked at issues of size and majority and at the impact of moving from three to two verdicts. Unlike many other studies, that study was able to examine the detail of the mock jurors’ deliberations.

It was established that moving from three to two verdicts in isolation could increase the number of convictions so, to ensure the appropriate safeguards and balances in our system, the proposal is to move from a simple majority to a qualified majority, which consultation responses supported.

I have said repeatedly that the reforms to the jury system are not designed to either increase or decrease the number of convictions.

The question about diversity is a fair one. In the interests of balance and fairness, the evidence that the senators of the College of Justice submitted to the committee unsurprisingly includes more than one view. We have known for some time that there is not one view on some of the reforms that have been proposed, particularly in terms of the pilot. For the record, it is important to acknowledge that the submission from the senators narrates that there is support among some senators for that change.

However, the point about diversity is important. The jury research that I referred to earlier demonstrated that the diversity of juries did not overcome the prevalence and power of rape myths. Although Mr Findlay is, of course, right to raise issues about the diversity of the judiciary, nonetheless, the judiciary is a group of professional decision makers who have experience and training, and if they are part of the sexual offences court they will, like everybody else, have to be trained in trauma-informed practice. It is a more easily identifiable group to support with other measures including education and training, which is probably unachievable if you are randomly selecting 12 or 15 people.