Chamber and committees

To be blunt, I would say that doing nothing to move towards preventative services and early intervention is not an option. Indeed, we can see that in the obvious example of the rising prison population, and the same could apply to other justice services. In our broad strategic approach, we need to reduce demand for some services, and you can do that only by acting earlier.

With our precious resources, we need, where possible, to have a longer-term spend-to-save vision through, for example, certain digital investment. The evidence tells us that, although there will always be a place for prisons and although there will always be people who will be required to be in custody, the use of robust community supervision is far more effective at reducing reoffending than, for example, a short-term custodial sentence. In some circumstances, prison is an expensive way of making things worse.

I think that your cross-Government point is well understood; indeed, I would highlight as an example the overrepresentation of care leavers in our prison system. Therefore, it is not just investment in community justice or rehabilitation programmes in prisons that is important to me, but our investment in the early years, in supporting families and in the Promise, and there is also the work that we are doing in justice on the bairns’ hoose pathways. All of those things will lead to a different approach to supporting children and victims.

Moreover, there is the proceeds of crime money that is invested in diversionary activities for young people. Over its history, it has supported hundreds of thousands of them; indeed, I think that the current programme will benefit around 33,000 young people across the country.

How the Lord Advocate pursues prosecutions is a matter for her. I will have meetings and catch-up sessions with the Lord Advocate and it will be for her to perhaps look at modelling to anticipate the impact that that will have on prosecutions. However, as I said, the judgment has an immediate and retrospective impact.

It is too early to say, but I think that it is fair to say that it has the potential to increase prosecutions.

Yes. I did not want you to be under the impression that this was a one-year-only capital investment.

The part about a royal commission.

No. There is, of course, a place for in-depth inquiries, but they do not come without a financial cost. If you had to ask me to choose between investing in front-line services or some sort of inquiry, I would opt to invest in front-line services. It is important to recognise that fires and fire deaths in domestic premises have reduced in the past five years.

On facilities, I accept the point that it is important that workers are afforded dignity, safety and privacy. Despite a challenging situation in the past, we have maintained capital spend at £32.5 million. The issue is not just inflationary pressures, although I point to such pressures on construction services, and the cost of basic materials to replace buildings has certainly rocketed thanks to record-breaking UK-wide inflation and other matters such as Brexit. However, there has also been a proactive decision by the UK Government not to increase capital funding—not to inflation-proof that—so that gives us challenges, and we will have to prioritise in terms of safety, because safety is a priority. We also have His Majesty’s Fire Service Inspectorate in Scotland, which provides independent oversight of fire and rescue services and which should give us all some assurance.

Yes.

What I think John Swinney is driving at, on keeping our communities safe, is that the debate is much broader than being just about police officers because the work must also involve police staff and other associated professionals, who will bring various forensic skills to bear.

I know that various dates have been produced and bandied about but, to be absolutely clear with the committee, we want to get the costs so that we can get to implementation, make the plans and set out the capital budget so that there is an up-to-date timeline for everybody to work towards.

Not being a builder, I share some of that frustration, but I know that the Scottish Prison Service, and particularly the governor of Barlinnie, is very focused on the project. We have to accept that the pandemic and the construction materials price index, with a 47 per cent increase overall in construction materials, have an impact. I want to have as much clarity as soon as possible, and I know that the Scottish Prison Service shares that view, too.