Chamber and committees

Will one of the panel members from one of the other IJBs contribute a wee bit to the discussion?

I have no interests to declare, but I refer members to my entry in the register of interests.

This is my first time on the committee. If we close a petition, does the petitioner have the right to come back on it? How does that work?

I have read the evidence in detail because I have also been approached by constituents about the issue. For me, the key was the fact that the petitioners have said that mesh should be used only where it is essential. We should drill further into that. People should be properly informed and consent to these procedures, because we know from previous work on the use of transvaginal mesh just how life changing these things can be. Therefore, it is an important issue, and I would like to see the petition go further so that we have clarity on the issue.

Okay. So the petitioner has options.

It is fair to say that we have discussed delayed discharges over many years, and we acknowledge that things continue to be bad and are possibly worse than they were before. The witnesses on the previous panel and the current one have mentioned how important delayed discharge is in resolving some of the issues.

You have talked about recruitment of staff, staff pay, intermediate beds, the role that AHPs can have and, of course, the pay, terms and conditions and recruitment of social care staff. What support do you need from the Scottish Government to move forward? There is a lot of urgency, but it does not always feel as though we are moving forward at pace with any of the ideas from you and the staff about Government support.

That is very helpful. Is enough urgency being placed on that to get it through quickly enough? That is the key.

I want to be clear that I accept that the panel members want things to work and that they are working hard to get this in. However, I want to talk a wee bit about the reality that we observe and what we see in our in-boxes from patients who have waited on trolleys and have found that the staff work 100 per cent and above and beyond, but are still finding it difficult. Staff trade unions also tell us how much stress staff are under in relation to beds. The professional organisations tell us that, too.

I visited a local hospital at 9 o’clock on a Friday morning. There were three ambulances waiting to unload, every accident and emergency bay had had a patient in it for more than 24 hours, and the bed capacity was basically non-existent. I was told by staff and managers—everybody—that that situation was not unusual.

We need to be realistic about where we are, and we need to talk about whether there is enough support from the Government to help health boards. Will we have enough bed space this winter? The issue is not just bed space: I have been advised that the ratio of bed space to staffing is not at the level that we need even before we fill the beds—they are constantly getting staff in again and again.

I appreciate that you want things to work, but how realistic is it that things will be in a good space this winter?

I have a quick question for Leigh Johnston. Recently, it has been mentioned to me that one of our responses to Covid in hospitals was to increase bed capacity—which is understandable—and that that has continued. Some health boards are concerned that the staffing issues were never addressed. There are staffing issues to do with recruitment, and the full-time equivalent posts are simply not there. It was mentioned to me that staffing was running at around 70 per cent of the funding allocation. Is that something that you have picked up on across the board?

If I wanted to look at bed capacity before and after Covid, where would be the best place to look at that information and the staffing levels around that?