Chamber and committees

Good morning to the panel. Thanks very much for your answers so far and also for the information that you submitted in advance, which was very helpful.

I want to talk a little bit about co-production, and I will refer to the submission from Inclusion Scotland. Dr Nolan, I remember that, around the time when health and social care partnerships were developed, a large number of disabled people’s organisations convened what we called a war cabinet to talk about concerns with co-production and getting disabled people and service users a vote on boards to make decisions. Can you say a little bit about the importance of users having a voice in determining the outcomes for social care, as well as the strategic decisions that are taken about it? You said that a lack of co-ordination and co-production could “defeat success” for the national care service. Could you expand on that and talk to us about how you characterise its development so far?

Dr Nolan, I would like to pick up where you finished and talk about Dr Jim Elder-Woodward’s submission. As always, I am very impressed with the work that he has done on this area—I had a look at it when I saw that you referenced it in your submission. He says that the right to need satisfaction is underpinned by sub-rights, including someone’s right to know what information means for them; to have advocacy before, during and after the process; to be present when decisions are made; to have an independent appeals mechanism; and to have any unmet need recorded. Have you had any discussions with the Government on that, and do you think that it is moving towards that? I note your earlier comment about feeling that there is some back-pedalling on independent living, and I have serious concerns about that.

Thank you. I have one final question in this area, which is for Adam Stachura.

On rights, you have already spoken about accountability, and that issue was raised in some of what we have just heard from Dr Nolan and other panellists around making sure that people can be held to account. You mentioned data and unmet needs. What else do you think needs to be done so that, if people find themselves waiting 800 days for social care—which is entirely unacceptable—there is somewhere that they can go?

I will do that seamlessly, convener.

I thank the witnesses for all their comments so far. I also want to put on the record my thanks for all the work that carers did during the pandemic and for the work that they did before it and have done since. As a care user, I understand the importance of social care, and I want to put that on the record.

My question is a follow-up to the previous one for Alison White. As members and others might be aware, I have a proposed member’s bill on the transition to adulthood for young disabled people. In your view, would that transition process be affected by the national care service? Is there a danger that provision will become more piecemeal if all the services are not much more co-ordinated as part of that process?

What would you do to not destabilise things?

Thank you. I will move on to my main area of questioning. My questions are for Cara Stevenson and Sara Cowan.

Cara, you mentioned that, in social care, it has been very difficult to recruit and retain staff. Can you tell us about the role of fair work in that and the experience that your members are having on the pay that they are currently living on?

Thank you. The example that you shared about the shopping is grim. I have seen that situation and people in the Glasgow region have told me about it, too. As I hope you are aware, we support the £15 an hour ask. It is beyond overdue. The notion that we need to wait until the national care service is set up is worrying.

Sara Cowan, could you comment on that issue, with particular reference to the impact that it is having on women’s inequality and poverty?

Thank you, both, for that.

I want to explore the impact of social care on inequality and human rights. I have long considered social care to be an investment and a piece of essential infrastructure to deliver on equality and human rights, but I would be keen to know, from Cara Stevenson first, how you think we can get to a position that social care does that for the people who work in it and for the people who use it, and how we can use this bill as an opportunity to do it.

A couple of weeks ago, another committee that I sit on it—the Equality, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee—took evidence about the budget. The Scottish Women’s Convention made a similar point to yours about the way that women workers are treated. I am disappointed but not surprised that it is so prevalent. Thank you for putting that on the record.

Sara Cowan, could you talk about your understanding of the role of social care and the social care workforce, and social care as a piece of infrastructure in general, in reducing poverty, inequality and promoting human rights?