Chamber and committees

Where are your clients when you have face-to-face appointments with them?

That is good to know. I will pop in and say hi sometime soon.

The figures on redeterminations for child disability payments suggest that 86 per cent are being allowed, which means that those 86 per cent were not correct the first time around. From the work of your advocates or from clients whom they work with, do you have any information that could help us to understand why that might be the case? What issues are you supporting clients with when it comes to redeterminations as opposed to initial applications?

Do you gather data systematically? I know that there will be a question on reviews later in the meeting; I have not said that I wanted to ask about that. Do you gather information and collect data on what people are approaching you for? Mr Senker said earlier that some people have applications sitting on their kitchen table because they cannot face doing them. Are you gathering data on the sorts of things that people ask you about and that determine the redeterminations?

Thank you. I have no further questions.

Good morning. I thank the witnesses for the information that you have shared so far and for answering our questions.

I am interested in going further on the subject of my colleague Jeremy Balfour’s questions and considering the type of support that you give. Can you give us a flavour of the sort of support that people are getting? What are you doing with them? What kind of questions are you asking them? Is support given face to face or online?

Throughout the process, Scottish Labour has sought to focus on the bill and its drafting and to reject the culture wars that have dominated some of the discussion. Casting trans people as threats or women as bigots is not helpful. What we need is good law and clear guidance, and that is what my party and I are working to achieve.

Although many concerns relate to issues that are not in the bill, we understand that some people, including women, are frightened that they will lose some of their rights, particularly in relation to single-sex services, and we know that they have fought hard for those rights.

Colleagues will know that the Equality Act 2010, which was introduced by the last Labour Government, provides protection from discrimination for women and trans people. It is our view that nothing in the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill will or should affect that. In the case of gender reassignment, it is clear that the protection from discrimination exists whether or not a GRC is in place and whether or not the person has undergone medical treatment for transition. The protections in the 2010 act also allow single-sex services, such as women’s refuges, to exclude men and trans people in certain circumstances. It is Scottish Labour’s view that the 2010 act is reserved and cannot be altered by devolved legislation, so it is our understanding that those protections will and must still apply if the bill is passed. That is a matter of great importance for many people who are concerned about the current reforms, and we recognise the desire for reassurance. That is why I lodged amendment 37.

That protection, which allows for the operation of single-sex spaces, works as an exemption to the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of sex or gender reassignation, but only when that is a proportionate response to meeting a legitimate aim. For example, in the case of a women’s single-sex service, a trans woman without a GRC could be excluded on the ground that they are legally a man. A trans woman with a GRC, who is therefore legally a woman, could also be excluded, but on the ground that they have reassigned their gender and sex on their birth certificate.

Both of those exemptions, for the protection and dignity of women who are accessing services, must be protected. That is why we support reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the continued implementation of the protections and provisions in the Equality Act 2010. Therefore, it should be clear in the bill that nothing in it modifies the protections in the 2010 act. In proposing amendment 37, I seek to ensure that, should the bill pass, it is clear that Parliament believes that the GRA must be considered alongside the 2010 act.

It is also my belief that it is crucial that the Equality Act 2010 is read in as a whole, because it is the interaction of all the schedules in that act that brings its strength. Including only the aspects of the 2010 act that relate to sex could, at a later date, mean that it could be assumed that we did not give importance to, for example, gender reassignment. That would be a concern in relation to a number of issues, but that element specifically could be key with regard to applying some of the previous exemptions that I spoke about in relation to protecting single-sex services.

That is why I believe that my amendment, which focuses on the 2010 act in its entirety, affords the best and strongest protection for trans people and women and all of us. It covers the protections in sections 11 and 195 of the 2010 act, as other amendments in the group seek to do, and I believe that it will carry the confidence of the public.

On that basis, I will abstain on several amendments in the group that pick out specific sections of the 2010 act and on Jeremy Balfour’s amendment on the European convention on human rights, which was discussed previously. My amendment seeks to cover all of those without separating them from the other aspects of the 2010 act, which I believe is what brings its strengths.

I will support amendments that seek guidance on how the two acts would work together. That will be essential if the public are to have confidence in the law and in order that organisations are clear about what they can and cannot do, which my colleagues have spoken about already. Amendment 37 would ensure that, in any future dispute over Parliament’s intention in passing the Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill, it will be clear that each and every protection and provision of the Equality Act 2010 will and must continue to have effect, despite the passage of the bill.

I will support many amendments in this group because review on impact is key. Like my colleague Jamie Greene, I may not always share some of the concerns, but it is incredibly important that we properly scrutinise the impact of the legislation.

I will support the amendment to section 2 in Claire Baker’s name because it is rightly more comprehensive than amendment 76. I will abstain on amendments 148 and 143, because I had asked the member to consider that the timescales are quite short after royal assent, and I will vote against amendment 155, because it would delay the act, and trans people have waited a long time for this. Otherwise, I support the amendments in the group.

Amendment 145 aims to ensure that Parliament considers how the process outlined in the bill is working, including in terms of the role of the registrar general and section 22. It also requires ministers to consider whether there should be provisions for non-binary people, as we know that not including them has been a concern for many.

Amendment 146 in my name ensures that we consider properly the impact—unintended or otherwise—of the act. Scottish Labour knows that people have concerns, including on how the act interacts with protections in the Equality Act 2010, the disclosure of protection information and other areas. Some have also raised concerns about the impact on gender identity healthcare, as we have heard, so the amendment requires the Government to look at all of that.

Lastly and importantly, some people are concerned that legal challenges will be brought in relation to the bill and the Equality Act 2010. The amendment seeks to monitor that as well. In short, the amendment is designed to scrutinise many areas of concern in the bill so that, should they come to pass, Parliament can address them.

Thank you for that answer. I take the point about the need for a system that is proportionate. No one wants to publish information about individuals, given that we are talking about small numbers. I appreciate that that is a concern.

However, when we talk about the impact of the bill, particularly in relation to how it interacts with the Equality Act 2010, it is important that we can understand that. There are concerns about the interaction with the Equality Act 2010. If we do not assess the impact, people with concerns will never know whether their concerns have come to pass, and people who think that there is no need for concern will never know whether they were right not to have concerns. It is important that we do all that we can to collect information on that so that the public can have confidence in what the bill is trying to do.

Forgive me for intervening, cabinet secretary—and convener; I do understand the time constraints—but, on that point, I do not understand why it is not possible to gather certain information. Do you mean that you do not gather it yet? In that case, can you confirm that you would be open to gathering additional or new information?

Amendment 153 would ensure that all future changes to the legislation made by the registrar general under regulations would be subject to the affirmative procedure. We believe that that would give the required scrutiny that is necessary for such changes.

I move amendment 153.