Chamber and committees

Good morning, Professor Muir. Thank you for the information that you submitted in advance and for the answers that you have given so far.

I want to ask about the issues of structural change and cultural change. A number of respondents to the committee have suggested that there is too much focus in the bill on structural change and insufficient focus on cultural change. In your report, you talk about the shift in mindset and culture that is required. What is your response to that? Could you elaborate on what you think needs to be done to address the cultural change that is needed?

I have one final question. Is there anything missing from the bill?

Do you think that the bill as drafted allows for that or are there mechanisms that need to be changed in order to drive the culture change?

Do you think that the bill, in its current form, will drive the bottom-up approach that is needed or is it still a top-down approach that is being taken?

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I refer members of the panel and the committee to the declaration of interests that I made at the start of this meeting, in which I said that Barry Black has carried out some policy development work for me—as he has indicated on his submission for today’s meeting. I will direct my questions to Professor Donaldson and Professor Priestley.

The conversation that we just had about culture and structure touched on changes happening without the front line knowing. I want to pick up on something in your evidence, Professor Priestley, where you note that not separating the award and regulation functions of the SQA is a mistake. You cite the higher history paper example, which we know caused significant concern among pupils and teachers. Is the bill sufficient to protect against such issues happening again? If not, what would you change?

I appreciate your answer, which is helpful with regards to the SQA point as well. We have heard points from Professor Muir, you and others around structure and culture. Is there anything missing from the bill that could change the culture?

Good morning. I want to declare an interest with regard to today’s evidence taking, particularly the second panel, when we will hear from Barry Black. As he has noted in his submission, which has been given in advance, Barry has carried out policy development work for me. As such, I will not be directing any questions towards him this morning. Thank you.

On the point about industrial relations, it is probably fair to say that the minister is aware of what I think about how things have been going over recent months and years, and I have called several times for the Government, and the minister, to intervene to help things out. I will come to the resolution that you reached last week, which I am pleased was able to be reached. However, before I do that, I will build on Evelyn Tweed’s questions.

The Strathesk report has not yet had a full response from the Government, but there are a couple of outstanding questions from both sides, if we can call them that. One issue is that there does not seem to be much information flow between the meetings of employers and trade unions. Another issue is that the approach to facility time or the ability to engage in such meetings seems at times to be a bit imbalanced, with trade unions feeling that they do not get enough facility time to participate entirely. There is also an issue around the question of an independent chair.

What is the minister’s response to all that, and how will he address the issue of trust in the machinery?

That will be welcome. As you will be aware, when Shona Struthers from Colleges Scotland gave evidence to the committee, she said that she had

“never quite seen the college sector as it is now.”

I hope that you agree that colleges are key to delivering the skills that we need to grow our economy and to boost and build our public services. Shona Struthers also said:

“If you are not going to invest”—

you said clearly that the situation will not be addressed by an injection of cash, which is difficult—

“at least be clear about what it is that you ... want to be delivered”.—[Official Report, Education, Children and Young People Committee, 12 June 2024; c 3, 29.]

I ask you, minister, if and when you will provide the sector with the five-year plan that it has asked for, and what you expect of colleges. What is your plan for them to help to deliver those ambitions?