Chamber and committees

Thanks for bringing up that point. We definitely need to look at it with a wider scope.

Okay. We will take that idea away and look at it.

The committee previously agreed to take the next three items in private. As that was the last public item on our agenda for today, I close the public part of the meeting.

The next item is to take evidence on the committee’s annual review of national planning framework 4 from two panels of witnesses. On our first panel, we are joined by Catriona Hill of the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland, who is the chair of the Highlands and Islands Architects Association; Ailsa Macfarlane, who is the director of Built Environment Forum Scotland; Craig McLaren, who is the national planning improvement champion at the Improvement Service; and Jenny Munro, who is the policy and practice officer at the Royal Town Planning Institute Scotland. I welcome our witnesses this morning.

I remind members and those participating in the session that there are active legal proceedings concerning the interpretation of NPF4 policies and the interaction between those policies and existing local plans. Under the Parliament’s standing orders,

“A member may not in the proceedings of the Parliament refer to any matter in relation to which legal proceedings are active except to the extent permitted by the Presiding Officer.”

Although we do not wish the discussion and debate to be unduly restricted, I would ask members and witnesses to avoid referencing specific matters that are currently before the courts.

We turn to questions. We will try to direct our questions to specific witnesses where possible, but, if you want to come in on a question, please indicate that to me or the clerks. There is no need for you to turn your microphones on and off; we will do that for you. That is one less thing to think about.

I will begin with a couple of questions. I will direct this to you first, Ailsa Macfarlane, so you know that it is coming your way. We have heard calls for the Scottish Government to establish a hierarchy of NPF4 policy priorities, with the idea being that that would help decision makers and developers. Would you support the development of such a hierarchy and, if so, why?

Will you clarify that for me? Are you are saying that a natural hierarchy will emerge?

I picked up in Jenny Munro’s response something that I am experiencing with some local authorities in my region, which is that decisions are perhaps being made at a planning level but other departments are still doing things differently. We are now in what I think is called “No mow May”, when we are not supposed to be mowing anything in order to protect the habitat of a lot of insects and other wildlife that we share this patch of earth with. As I understand it, though, other departments are still getting out there and cutting things down. Perhaps there needs to be a mind shift in the general public, too, with regard to our wanting things to be tidy, clean and neat versus how things should actually look if we are to be a biodiverse and climate-supportive country.

Do you have any other thoughts on that?

I am sorry, but I wonder whether, for people’s understanding, you can say a bit more about what it is about that particular permitted development right that is undermining things.

Thanks very much for that. I call Willie Coffey.

Gordon MacDonald wants to come in with some questions.

Craig McLaren, did you want to come in on that?

I will pick up a couple of questions to explore the rural revitalisation that NPF4 aims to produce. When we were talking about compact urban growth and finding the balance, Catriona Hill said that we need a different approach and different solutions for rural areas. What evidence do you have on rural revitalisation?

I also have a very specific question that has been raised with me in my region around policy 17, which is on rural homes. It was raised by an architectural firm that does design and build. In the past, it has been able to use infill and gap sites and to extend existing groups of domestic or non-domestic buildings. Under NPF4, the council that it works with has turned down its using such sites. Maybe there is a bit of conflict around the need for biodiversity in that space. We have such a desperate need for housing in rural areas. Are you aware of such things?