Chamber and committees

Before I bring in Emma Roddick, I want to pick up on a longer-term issue. This question is not necessarily for Christian Hilber, but it relates to his point about the need to reform our planning systems. When I talked to Argyll and Bute Council about that, a point was made that planning permission might be granted to a developer, but there is nothing in the system that requires the developer to move forward. The developer has permission but does not necessarily build the houses. Do we need something in place so that, when developers have permission, they move forward and build houses?

Our next item is to take evidence for our housing inquiry from two panels of witnesses. The sessions are an opportunity for the committee to look at the response to the housing emergency and to consider how we move beyond that to a sustainable housing system that works for all.

We are joined by our first panel: Chris Birt, associate director for Scotland, Joseph Rowntree Foundation; Professor Ken Gibb, director, UK Collaborative Centre for Housing Evidence at the University of Glasgow; and Professor Christian Hilber, department of geography and environment, London School of Economics and Political Science. I welcome the witnesses and I turn to questions from members.

We have about 75 minutes for the session and we have a lot of ground to cover, so I would be grateful if witnesses kept their responses—and members kept their questions—as concise as possible. We will try to direct questions to specific witnesses where possible but, if you would like to come in, please indicate that to the clerks or me. There is no need to turn your microphones on and off, as we will do that for you.

I begin with a number of general scene-setting questions. I am interested in hearing what constitutes a housing emergency from your perspective, so that we can understand that as a baseline for our discussion. I will start with Chris Birt and work across.

Welcome back. We are joined on our second panel this morning by Donna Bogdanovic, who is head of housing strategy and development at Scottish Borders Council; Stephen Llewellyn, who is chief housing officer at North Lanarkshire Council; Derek McGowan, who is service director for housing and homelessness at the City of Edinburgh Council; Blair Millar, who is head of housing and communities at East Ayrshire Council; and Edward Thomas, who is head of housing and property services at Moray Council.

We will try to direct our questions to specific witnesses where possible, but if you would like to come in on the back of a question to someone else, please indicate that to me or the clerks. We have until 11.30 for this session, and we have a lot of ground to cover, so I would be grateful if you could keep your responses succinct and I ask colleagues to keep their questions succinct. There is no need for you to turn on your microphones, as we will do that for you.

I have some opening general questions, and my first one is to the City of Edinburgh Council and Scottish Borders Council, so that is to Derek McGowan and Donna Bogdanovic. Although I said that we should keep it brief, my questions are quite extensive. I will see whether I can roll them together as I go along. Just so that you know that you will get brought in, folks, my second batch of questions will go to the witnesses from Moray, East Ayrshire and North Lanarkshire.

The committee has previously heard about challenges in the housing system. We would be interested to hear what specific factors have caused you to declare a housing emergency. What do you hope to achieve from making such a declaration?

My other question is around planning. A question came up in the previous panel around the fact that developers might get planning permission but do not move forward with housing development. It might have been Ken Gibb who responded that some kind of proportional property tax for land with planning permission would be good for moving such housing development forward. Do you face that kind of issue in your areas? One of the threads that came through in the earlier session was that planning was a problem, but maybe there is an aspect of planning where permission has been granted but housing development is not moving forward. What is it like in your areas?

That is great. I think that we will have some questions later about defining the housing emergency, so I will let colleagues come in on that.

Christian Hilber noted the percentage of the population in Scotland that is not in permanent housing, with reference to the Financial Times report, and used the word “shocking”. That is one aspect. Does Ken Gibb or Chris Birt have anything to add on how Scotland’s position compares with that of the rest of the UK?

That is a really great point. Those things are not silly—they are the things that we need to understand. Sometimes why things are not happening is a bit of mystery. That is certainly a very good point.

Willie Coffey, I hope that your toes do not feel too stepped on. I will bring you in on these questions and you can ask them of other witnesses.

In the spring of 2024, we had a useful session on rural housing—folks watching online can refer to that. Chris Birt’s point about SME builders was raised in that session. We heard that, after the financial crash of 2008, SME construction companies that were responsible for building a lot of rural housing found that the bottom fell out of the market. I cannot remember the exact words that were used earlier, but I think that Ken Gibb talked about the land supply issue as being something that could incentivise SMEs to come forward and get established in those areas. There has also been discussion around issues such as ways of thinking about building at scale, because there are two-house developments dotted around the north-west coast of Sutherland, and there can be action to collectively buy the materials for all of them, which keeps those costs down. There are some good solutions out there, and we definitely need to persist with them.

That brings us to the end of our questions—except for one that I have just been reminded of.

The Scottish Government has a proposal for a new national outcome on housing—there has not previously been one on housing in the national performance framework. The outcome would be:

“We live in safe, high-quality and affordable homes that meet our needs”.

I am interested in our witnesses’ views on that proposed new outcome. Could it help the Scottish Government to guide its policies to address the housing emergency?

Does anyone else want to share any thoughts? You do not have to.

It is helpful to understand that it is a nuanced approach, depending on the circumstances.

Stephen, what is going on in North Lanarkshire?

That is very helpful. Thank you.