Chamber and committees

I have a personal view on that. Although I mentioned some of the initiatives, policies, funding, support and funds, the situation is multifaceted and complex. I have touched on the fact that this comes under the remit of equalities but that, actually, we cannot get away from the fact that mainstreaming—I think—is the way forward. I am thinking about whose responsibility it is, and that is my concern about a commissioner. Intersectional barriers make it more complex to address issues. In my position, for instance, as a woman of colour, would I access services for women, services for ethnic minorities or services for disabled people? Where would you go for that support?

The observation that I would make with regard to the historical limited progress that has been made on the impact on disabled people’s lives is this: who takes responsibility for it? You are almost having to choose your own hierarchy. Is the issue your disabledness? Is it your curtailed employability? Is it your accessible housing? People should not have to choose.

This is all about looking at the whole person. Part of my role, then, as Minister for Equalities is to work cross-portfolio and to ensure that every portfolio is meeting its responsibility to mainstream disabled people’s rights. They have done so, but those rights need to be taken up if they are to have that impact.

I absolutely have sympathy on the matter. It is complex, but we all need to do it. I suppose that the disability commissioner would have a role in making sure that that happened, but I also highlight the public sector equality duty, in that respect. There are bodies out there, and there might be options where we can beef up that aspect. I know that disabled people’s organisations, for instance, are very conscious that any such commissioner would have to have teeth, so we would need to look at issues such as enforcement. The fact, though, is that we already have bodies that deal with statutory rights, and there is more work to be done to ensure that those statutory rights are executed properly and that they have that impact.

Well, I cannot say too much about that, because of the programme for government. Once we are over the next few days, I will be happy to write to you and the committee to give you more information on that.

As I said, the programme for government and the financial statement are yet to come. However, if there is anything wider to say to the committee, I am more than happy to provide further information drilling down into the numbers once we all have it over the next few days. I am happy to write to you with more detailed information, Ms McNair.

I think that the benefits are obvious. The motto is “Nothing about us without us.”

Disabled people’s organisations are excellent representatives. They would be the first ones to say that hearing directly from those with lived experience and those with learned experience is so important because, with the best will in the world, no matter how much we think that we know best, we do not. It works both ways: some of the things that I perceive would be difficult for people are not a big deal for them, but there are other things that we do not see.

The practical reality is that it will be a challenge to ensure that the bill and the commissioner are truly inclusive. We need to consider how the consultation will take place—will it be done online? That will have various implications relating to travel, health and social care, and carers, for example. All of those things will come into it.

That feeds back into the financial area. We need to consider whether those things have been taken into account in order to make the bill truly meaningful. I would look for transparency regarding the additional costs that would arise from those things and at where those costs would be accounted for, to ensure that those things happen. Does that answer your question?

Thank you for recognising that the commissioner landscape is already complex. As I said, the Finance and Public Administration Committee is considering whether a more coherent and strategic approach is needed to the creation of commissioners in Scotland. Under the current financial climate in particular, we need to be extra considerate of the financial sustainability of a growing commissioner landscape while ensuring that the people of Scotland are also well served. If there are too many commissioners, disabled people might not know where they can go for help. The accessibility of that help is equally important.

That issue was raised in the consultation on the bill, notably by both the Equality and Human Rights Commission and the Law Society of Scotland. There are issues on which the bill has the potential to overlap with the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s existing functions. There are also several provisions in the bill that correspond broadly to the provisions in the Equality Act 2006. Under the Equality Act 2010, the Equality and Human Rights Commission has powers that relate to all those with protected characteristics, including disabled people. Therefore, there is a possibility that there could be a weakening of the duties that, for instance, the Scottish Human Rights Commission already has, and it has expressed that concern.

In one of the committee’s evidence sessions, Nick Hobbs of the Children and Young People’s Commissioner Scotland also voiced concerns about a new commissioner making it more difficult for existing stakeholders to undertake work. I will stop there.

Our second agenda item is consideration of one negative Scottish statutory instrument: SSI 2023/375. I refer members to paper 1.

No members have indicated that they have any comments to make. That being the case, are members content not to make any comment to the Parliament on this instrument?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you.

That was a pretty comprehensive answer. I do not see any indication that anyone else wants to come in. Do you have any further questions, Annie?

I point out to members and our contributors that we were scheduled to finish this meeting at 11 o’clock. I can allow a little bit of leeway, but I would like people to focus on succinct answers. There is no need for repetition and that goes for members because we have questions coming up that might have already been covered.

Thank you, Maggie. That is appreciated. I will move swiftly on to Fulton MacGregor, please.