Chamber and committees

I hope so—I think that we are making progress in lots of areas. My role is to look at the bits where we are getting stuck. That is about providing the tools and the support. I know that my officials, who are experts in that area, are ready and waiting to support not only ministers and cabinet secretaries but their supporting officials, because the documents that they produce and the evidence that they gather will be expected to have equalities embedded in them right from the beginning, so that equalities are not dealt with in a report back to me as a bolt-on feature.

When I was a member of this committee, I always said that equalities should not be bolted on to a process at a later stage but should be part of the process right at the beginning. I am optimistic about that, and Mr O’Kane will know that I will be thorough in pursuing evidence of that and holding my colleagues to their responsibilities with regard to that challenge. I assure him that they are absolutely up for that.

I can see where that view comes from, and I am sympathetic to it. The value that I add is in ensuring that there is coherence and in taking a holistic view.

When the committee took evidence on the equality evidence strategy, Dr Alison Hosie from the SHRC said that the reports that we publish give a quantifiable picture of progress against the strategy. She recognised that the progress that we are making will take years to come to fruition. I agree that that could be speeded up, but we want to make sure that we get it right—that is the challenge. Dr Hosie also recognised that the commitment to regular transparent updates has been fulfilled so far and that they need to continue, and I assure you that we will continue to do that.

The NPF vision is reflected in the four key priorities that are expressed in our programme for government, which are fully aligned with the national outcomes. Those priorities are at the heart of everything that we do as an organisation. Following the conclusion of the review of the national outcomes, we will start policy work to further embed the NPF implementation plan, as recommended by the Finance and Public Administration Committee in 2022.

Responses to the Government’s consultation called for increased accountability mechanisms, including clarifying roles and responsibilities, better scrutiny, action to improve Government transparency and making progress towards outcomes. We continue to consider those issues carefully, but I remind the committee that I have not had any direct role in that so far.

The more active role that I am now taking with colleagues seeks to prevent what Mr O’Kane suggests. We need to consider equality impacts earlier, and we are making progress on that. Do we have more to do? Absolutely. Do we have all the data? I would say that we can never have enough data, but it must be quality data that is relevant, and my colleagues must be able to use it. It must provide them with the tools and training so that they can make different decisions or, if they make the same decisions, they will have an enhanced view of the impacts, so any mitigating decisions can then be assessed more thoroughly.

Nick Bland can address that specific point.

No, I have not fed into that, because, as I said earlier, that was before my time, but I can bring Nick Bland in again if you wish further information on that.

I have noted your comments, and I can follow up on the guidance that is used by the independent fund distributor—as I said, it is either “Inspire” or “Aspire”, but I can never remember which one it is. It uses clear monitoring and governance structures. That is all written down, and I can provide you with that evidence.

That is always a challenge, and we want to prevent siloing—I think that that is what you referred to in your question. The eternal conundrum is to get that clarity and that connection and collaboration across portfolios. It is a challenge. There is absolutely no doubt about that.

I say right from the beginning that I have not had a direct role in the setting of the national outcomes. Those were laid in Parliament before my appointment to this role. However, obviously, I have a keen interest.

Nick Bland can come in on this one, because it was before my time—that is the only reason.

Obviously, we want to prevent delays as much as possible, but I cannot give you a definitive answer to that. Where there are suitable course corrections that do not alter the intent of the original action and lessons are learned for the second half of the equality evidence strategy, those will be highlighted. Work on that is on-going, but I am broadly content with the direction of travel.

Absolutely. I have been watching the evidence and I am always open to it. I will bring in Matt Elsby on the equality and fairer Scotland budget statement.

A growing wealth of information is published alongside the Scottish budget—for instance, the Scottish Government published 23 supporting documents to give further information on the 2024-25 Scottish budget. I recognise that more needs to be done, including reviewing the information that is published alongside the Scottish budget.

We are considering carefully how we can improve public participation in the Scottish budget in the longer term, while bearing it in mind that I meet stakeholders regularly. I am actively exploring the suggestion that the previous chair of EHRBAG, Professor Angela O’Hagan, made, and the alternative proposal of moving to a two-stage process, with one publication in the summer and a further publication alongside the budget. That would require a fundamental overhaul of the current system and would therefore require careful assessment of how effective and feasible it would be. That is the longer-term picture.

Since I came into the process, and having come into my role when I did, I have been trying to change cultures, attitudes and ways of working. We will need to take time to measure the impact of that. Work and actions have started now. I expect there to be more positive evidence for next year’s round of budgeting and, in the following year of the three-year cycle, I think that we will see the biggest impact of the change in how we do things.

Thank you for that mention of visible leadership that I am taking. You referred to the NPF. The review does not fall within my remit, but I look forward to the outcome of the inquiry and to working with colleagues and stakeholders in implementing the next iteration of the NPF, from 2025. I would be happy to follow up with the committee in writing on specific points relating to my role in the framework as Minister for Equalities.