Chamber and committees

Yes, it helps, Fiona. I have a further question on that. Some rural local authorities—I am thinking specifically of the two that my constituency covers—have commented that the HNDA figures are based on current population but the pandemic has given rise to people seeking to move back into places such as Ayrshire, where depopulation happened previously. Does the flexibility allow for that type of change and reflect the number of houses that are required that we perhaps did not think were required in the past?

I agree with Paul Sweeney. The committee will have to be mindful of that and include it in our scrutiny work.

I have forgotten where I was. I knew that that was going to happen to me on my first time.

Kaukab Stewart highlighted that 96 per cent of her constituency is in tenemental period properties and the huge challenge that arises from that, as highlighted by her survey.

Mark Ruskell eloquently pointed out how his period property has been retrofitted numerous times over the years, as technology has advanced, but he recognised that the scale of retrofitting is a mountain in front of us.

The final contribution in the open debate, from Alex Rowley, reinforced the very real issue of the looming fuel cost crisis and the never-ending cycle of retrofitting, which was interesting coming straight after Mark Ruskell’s contribution. The issue of building to a gold standard is something that the committee will have to focus on, but we have to recognise that, because technology emerges all the time, we will see continual retrofitting regardless of getting to a gold standard at the moment. That was a very interesting contribution.

I thank Parliament for the opportunity to have the debate. I hope that by the time we come back to consider the issue in the chamber again we will do so reflecting on real progress. I hope that we will see local and national strategies that offer clear pathways to the delivery of the retrofitting agenda; that funding is in place through a combination of sources to support that delivery; that people know how to access that funding; that the public understands what is required of them and why it is necessary; that we are delivering the retrofitting agenda in a way that is consistent with a just transition; and that there is a skilled workforce across Scotland that is able to deliver on the agenda, irrespective of where someone lives.

Finally, I hope that the conversations with the UK Government on the issue of VAT on retrofit work and electricity tariffs will have progressed, thereby removing the obstacles in the way of our ambitions for retrofitting.

Before I start, I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests: I am still a councillor in East Ayrshire.

I am very pleased to be closing this extremely important debate on behalf of the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee. As the committee convener said at the beginning of the debate, we are just beginning our work on the retrofitting of housing for net zero. Therefore, the debate has been immensely constructive in helping us to shape what our next steps should be on the issue.

The debate has affirmed the huge challenge that is ahead of us in meeting the Scottish Government’s ambitions for the retrofitting of housing for net zero. It has also emphasised the importance of meeting that challenge, and the significant contribution that reducing emissions from housing will make in meeting our overall net zero target.

Although we recognise the enormity of the challenges ahead of us, it is reassuring to hear from all parties today that we share a collective commitment to overcoming them.

We need to think in radical and innovative ways to meet the challenges. It has been great to hear today about the creative and innovative approaches that can be considered. As part of that, we need to think about delivering on retrofitting in a way that improves people’s lives, that enables them to live in homes that are conducive to better health and that does not push them into fuel poverty or exponentially increase rents.

The policy needs to be delivered in a manner that is consistent with a just transition. As a committee, and as a Parliament, we have a very important role to hold the Scottish Government to account and ensure that we are doing all that we can to deliver on the ambitions for retrofitting.

I turn to members’ contributions. This is the first time that I have delivered a closing speech on behalf of a committee, so bear with me, folks. The minister was right to point out in his opening speech that retrofitting housing is an immense challenge, and that it needs to be done at scale and at pace. He was also right to mention that public awareness has been raised since COP26. However, we need to raise awareness further—we must do so in the immediate future.

The committee looks forward to scrutinising the legislation that the minister mentioned. There is a real need for careful scrutiny to ensure that the public understands why change is needed, how they can make changes and how they can fund them. It is vital that the green heat finance task force, which the minister mentioned, helps to drive innovation and unlock private investment to complement the public moneys that will be available.

Miles Briggs suggested that wall and floor insulation could be an early driver for change. That would give those in rural properties, which are difficult to retrofit, somewhere to start and something to focus on, given that there are huge numbers of people in poverty in rural settings.

Mark Griffin was also right to raise the issue of fuel poverty and how it can be exacerbated by inefficient homes. The reality for many home owners is that the costs of retrofitting will be prohibitive. Therefore, the no-detriment principle is key. I share his concerns regarding cowboy builders—we saw the effects of that in previous energy efficiency schemes.

Liam McArthur underlined the issue of rural and island fuel poverty and the vastly higher costs of retrofitting in those areas. We are potentially talking about more than £17,000 for each property. We need to understand how people will be able to fund that.

Paul McLennan outlined that to reduce fuel poverty in the long term, decarbonising homes with low carbon, fuel-efficient measures will be key. He also underlined the importance of the no-detriment principle and the need for all Governments to work collaboratively on the issue.

Liam Kerr spoke about the 70,000 off-grid homes, which is a huge issue. We have had to deal with, and supply fuel pumps to, some of those in my council area. He mentioned the costs and difficulties in retrofitting such properties and spoke about how there is no one-size-fits-all approach to tackling the issue.

Fergus Ewing passionately raised the issue of his constituent who lives in a listed building—I live in one, too—and the associated issues, which the committee has already started to explore, with tensions between planning consent and retrofitting. He also raised the important issue of missing-share schemes. There are quite a lot of those schemes, including in my authority of East Ayrshire, and they will be important going forward.

Pauline McNeill reinforced the point that financial supports are required and raised concerns regarding a lack of consumer confidence in emerging and changing technologies. That is important, because consumers have to have confidence to go ahead with such big financial transactions.

Michelle Thomson pointed out, rightly, that it is an exponential challenge with a £33 billion price tag. She highlighted the need to upskill and support our small and medium-sized enterprises in order that they can help us to meet the challenge and underlined the skills shortage that we have to address, which many members talked about.

Meghan Gallacher discussed the desire to preserve our built heritage, which is important for so many of us, and how that can compete with retrofitting. Again, we need to find solutions for that.

Thank you, convener, and welcome, Paul. I have a quick question on the cross-CPG working that could perhaps happen. I am a member of the cross-party group on recreational boating and marine tourism, as is Stuart McMillan, who I note is on the membership list for your proposed CPG. Will there be plans to ensure that, where we can, we dovetail and work together? Do you anticipate that that will happen?

For the consideration of this agenda item, I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests, as I am still a sitting councillor in East Ayrshire Council.

Minister, given the on-going Covid-19 pandemic, are there any plans to bring forward the deadline for postal votes at the local government elections, as was done for the Scottish Parliament election in 2021? Any change might affect voters’ ability to register for an absentee vote, so the sooner that can be decided, the better.

Covid-19 has undoubtedly had a challenging impact on the delivery of NHS services. Does the First Minister agree that the establishment of the three early cancer diagnostic centres that she has just mentioned, including the one in my constituency, are providing a welcome referral route for patients who do not have the standard cancer symptoms and that those centres will be the way in which we can get patients on the most urgent of pathways, specifically in unfortunate cases of later-stage diagnosis due to the lack of the traditional presenting symptoms?

I have a question about your assertion that the Scottish block grant is to increase significantly next year. David Eiser of the Fraser of Allander Institute observed recently that next year’s block grant is

“really not very generous at all”.

Do you agree that, once non-recurring Covid consequentials are stripped out, Scotland’s resource budget will be cut by 7.1 per cent in real terms and the capital budget will be cut by 9.7 per cent in real terms? That gives rise to a difficult budget situation that is presented to the Scottish Government. The 5 per cent uplift for local government is therefore as fair as it is possible to be. You asserted that the Scottish Government’s budget will experience a real-terms increase from Westminster.

I welcome the panel. My first question is directed to Gail Macgregor from COSLA. The figures from Her Majesty’s Treasury, as published in a “Block Grant Transparency” document, show that the Scottish Government’s resource budget has been cut by £2.6 billion in real terms between 2021-22 and 2022-23. Taking that together with the real-terms capital budget cut of 9.7 per cent, does COSLA agree that the Scottish Government’s budget position is quite difficult and that the focus must be on the priorities that are shared by local and national Government, such as lifting children out of poverty?

Thank you for adding that. I think that we all agree that money is definitely well spent on the shared priorities that we seek to achieve, which will have a significant impact on communities.

My final question is for Gail Macgregor. COSLA’s blueprint for local government called for the

“Removal of a cap on Council Tax so that this is a truly local tax.”

You touched on that. I will move on to ask about the proposed fiscal framework, for which we have been waiting for a long time. The cabinet secretary has said that it will enable us to have multiyear settlements. I would like to get a feeling for the perspective of Gail Macgregor and COSLA on that. COSLA asked for the council tax cap to be lifted. How will the negotiations about a fiscal framework take us to the next level of local flexibility?