Chamber and committees

Absolutely. It would be a gradual thing. It is not the case that every child who is in a cross-border placement will be removed in a short period of time; however, the overall aim is to get to a place where our young people and children are being protected and cared for in the areas where they are from, unless there are reasons for them not to be. We absolutely need to make it less encouraging for local authorities in England to want to place children in secure care centres in Scotland, so we can ensure that the capacity is there for children in Scotland who require those places.

Indeed. As far as I am aware, the money would, under the current arrangements, be distributed through the normal budget process. However, as I have said, we would have to monitor that. If it turned out that a lot of young people were needing secure care in one area and not so much somewhere else, that would need to be looked at. As I have said, the secure care centres are having those discussions among themselves, and they can work out those issues, so that type of situation could be addressed.

I can understand that. As I said, my priority would be to ensure that there is capacity and space for children in Scotland who require it. In my meeting with Claire Coutinho, I will encourage changes to the practice in England.

As part of the on-going engagement with the UK Government so far—again, some of that predates my time in office—we continue to emphasise the importance of addressing the lack of capacity in adequate care accommodation in England.

We now have a memorandum of understanding that underpins regular discussions on these issues, and I will be taking them forward now. That commenced in March 2023, and it allows us to pursue the UK Government’s intended course of action, in particular in response to its independent care review. Those discussions are on-going.

I understand Mr Brown’s point about what would happen if there was capacity in Scotland; however, the priority is to ensure that there is capacity in Scotland and, working with the appropriate minister, in England as well.

I understand that that is an issue and it could certainly be looked into as part of updating the financial costs.

That is an important question. I understand the committee’s concerns around that. Obviously, the financial memo was completed well prior to my time in office but, as the member pointed out, it was completed prior to some wider issues, such as inflation. As I said, the financial memo was completed with the contribution of stakeholders and organisations, so it was a good snapshot in time of what the costs were at that point.

As we have rightly said, that will need to be updated, but we are confident that we can fulfil that. The multi-agency meeting on 5 June that I referred to in my opening statement will take forward these discussions with the appropriate stakeholders and organisations. Based on the feedback that we have already received or heard, that will be helpful.

In terms of the longer constraints, it is important to recognise the wider backdrop of the benefits that these change programmes could have and the potential savings to public expenditure. The negative costs to society—both economic and social—of offending and crime are well documented. For example, the Promise “Follow the Money” report estimated that the cumulative cost for physical and emotional harm, lost output and public service costs equated to £3.9 billion. We will need to consider that in terms of the savings that will be made in the longer term.

Absolutely. It is important that we undertake the planning work required for our free school meal expansion programme, and we will further consider which areas will be included in any pilot in due course. I am happy to keep Fulton MacGregor updated on that.

As I mentioned, in Scotland, we have the most generous free school meal provision anywhere in the UK, with all primary school pupils in primaries 1 to 5, all pupils in special schools and additional support needs schools and eligible pupils in primary 6 through to S6 able to access a free meal. We are continuing that roll-out with children on the Scottish child payment, and I am happy to provide the member with more updates as that progresses.

In Scotland, all primary school pupils in primaries 1 to 5, children in funded early learning and childcare, and eligible pupils in primary 6 through to secondary 6 can already benefit from free meals. That is the most generous provision anywhere in the United Kingdom, and it saves parents £400 per eligible child per year.

We will go further. Our additional investment, which was announced on 15 December, will fund the continued expansion of free school meals to all primary 6 and 7 pupils who are in receipt of the Scottish child payment, and we remain committed to delivering a pilot of free school meals in secondary schools and to continuing to work closely with key delivery partners on our free school meal expansion programme. I would be happy to provide an update once planning work has progressed further.

To begin with, Covid certainly did not help with that, but that is a matter for local authorities, whose responsibility it is to encourage the take-up of free school meals.

I believe that 16 and 17-year-olds should be treated as children within the criminal justice system.