Chamber and committees

By helping to address the causes of a child’s offending behaviours, we can assist them to desist and to rehabilitate. In turn, we can prevent further harm and minimise the number of victims.

I hope that those opening remarks were helpful. I move,

That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill.

My priority is to ensure that the bill proceeds for the benefit of children and young people.

Will the member take an intervention?

Absolutely. If the member does not mind, I will cover that later on in my opening remarks.

By raising the maximum age of referral to the reporter, the bill takes positive action under the UNCRC. All children should be able to access the hearings system in cases where they may need the care and protection of that system, including when they are in conflict with the law.

Importantly, the bill does not disturb the constitutional independence of the Lord Advocate. Procurators fiscal will retain the discretion to prosecute children and young people in court, where that is necessary in the public interest. Where justice and safety demand it, Scotland’s courts will still be able to deprive a child of their liberty. Yet, in line with the Promise, the bill makes it clear that detention should normally be in secure accommodation rather than in a young offenders institution—at least until that deprivation of liberty needs to end or they turn 18.

I know that members of the committee have visited secure centres across Scotland and HM Young Offenders Institution Polmont. Despite the strengths in that facility, I hope that we can all agree that YOIs are not primarily designed as environments for children. Secure care centres, however, are designed, established and staffed to levels that allow them to be trauma-informed and age-appropriate settings. They offer a high staff to child ratio of skilled professionals with the specific qualifications that are required to meet the complex care and support needs of those young people.

Secure care can, and already does, care for those children aged 16 to 17 who pose the greatest risk of serious harm. The supervision and support arrangements in secure centres are intensive. Members will have seen from their visits that, when a child is placed there, public protection and safety are critical elements and facilities are locked.

I know that stakeholders unanimously expressed support for ending the placement of children in YOIs but also that some concerns have been raised about capacity and resourcing for secure care. The Scottish Government is already active in that area. That is why the reimagining secure care project, which the Children and Young People’s Centre for Justice is undertaking on our behalf, is running in tandem with the bill. A national implementation group for the bill, which is looking at costs, workforce issues and system readiness, began its work in early June.

I know that stakeholders have expressed support for the bill but have also raised issues about resourcing more broadly.

Last month, I was privileged to meet care-experienced young people at the launch of the hearings system working group. From that conversation, I understood the need to act with urgency and to take every opportunity to learn and listen, which is exactly what I am doing. Scotland’s young people—especially those who have faced adversity and disadvantage—need us to get this right. I will take that same listening and learning approach to the bill, as it progresses.

Members have commented on the hearings system. We know that it is already dealing with 16 and 17-year-olds, and that the people who work in the system are well equipped to think and act in a trauma-informed way for that age group. There is an appetite among all the relevant workforces to keep improving the hearings system. We are considering the redesign report of Sheriff Mackie’s hearings system working group, which we will respond to in full later this year. On where we are now with Children’s Hearings Scotland, I met the chair and the national convener last week, when those matters, as well as the upcoming recruitment campaign, were discussed.

As I said in opening, additional Scottish Government funding for 16 secure beds will be made available to ensure that providers of secure accommodation have the required resources. They need support for the capacity to be there to cope with young people who would otherwise be placed in YOIs.

The important work that is under way on reimagining secure care will help to identify any areas that can be improved for children who need those services. Profiling the needs of young people who are currently in YOIs will continue alongside the progress of the bill, so that secure centres can be supported to address the full spectrum of young people’s needs.

I will touch on some things that we have not discussed or had time to explore fully. The bill will make it easier for a child, including a child victim, to remain anonymous during the investigation of a crime and in court proceedings. That is crucial to children’s safety, rights and recovery. The bill will give courts discretion to extend anonymity for children who are found guilty of an offence, to allow them to be rehabilitated without damaging intrusion and speculation.

Importantly, the bill will put tighter inspection regimes in place for providers that set up in Scotland to take children from elsewhere in the UK. It is vital that cross-border placements be used only in exceptional circumstances and when they are in the child’s best interests. I was due to meet the UK Government Minister for Children, Families and Wellbeing, Claire Coutinho, around this time today to discuss that matter, but the meeting will be rescheduled, and I will be happy to give an update on it.

Questions have been asked about the reference to the age of 17 and a half that was used in the financial memorandum. The bill will enable all children who are under 18 to access the children’s hearings system, which will be treated on a case-by-case basis. It will be a matter for the Lord Advocate, if and when the current guidelines are reviewed, to consider whether a cut-off age is needed.

I move to specific contributions. I thank Ruth Maguire for her comments and appreciate where the concerns come from. I would be happy to meet her to discuss the matter further. Audrey Nicoll was right to highlight that secure care is not a soft option. The bill is not about soft justice but about providing a trauma-informed and age-appropriate setting that gives children the maximum opportunity for rehabilitation. I appreciate the concerns that Ross Greer and Willie Rennie expressed, although I do not like the suggestion that I am “shrugging” anything off. Work is on-going on a national service specification for secure transport that looks specifically at data gathering, information sharing and who is best placed to provide transport.

I urge members to support the bill and to allow it to move to the next stage in the parliamentary process. Scotland’s children need the changes to be brought in and need improvements to be made to the outcomes that we seek for them and the support that we provide. I am absolutely committed to keeping the Promise and to ensuring that children have their needs met in a trauma-informed and age-appropriate way. That cannot happen when they are in systems that are designed for adults.

The bill will have life-changing impacts for our children and young people—especially those who are from disadvantaged and care-experienced backgrounds, who are disproportionately represented in the youth justice system. There is no doubt that the approach is preventative and will offer our young people the best chance for rehabilitation and the best chance to alter their life path.

We all have a responsibility to get it right for every child, but we can do so only if we all work together.

As the childminding development officers or SCMA employees are contracted to work with local authorities, any employment or contracting decisions regarding those roles would be a matter for the relevant local authority and the SCMA to determine. However, childminders are a hugely valued part of our ELC sector and I encourage local authorities, as commissioners of services, to continuously consider what support is available for them at the local level.

For its part, the Scottish Government is working closely with the SCMA to promote childminding. We have supported a successful childminder recruitment pilot, which aims to recruit and train 100 new childminders in remote and rural communities, with a second phase now trialling the recruitment model in urban communities. We are also piloting activity with the SCMA across six local authorities to support childminders with streamlining, thereby reducing the administrative burdens that are associated with their practice, and we will continue to work with sector representatives.

The Scottish Government is working to increase the number of childminders who are operating across Scotland. That work includes supporting the innovative SCMA-led Scottish rural childminding partnership recruitment model and its extension into urban areas. The pilot makes a package of fully funded support and training available to successful applicants, providing everything that is needed to establish a new childminding business from home.

As I have said, childminders are a hugely valuable part of our ELC sector, not only because of their involvement in funded ELC, but because they have a vital role to play as we deliver our programme for government commitments to extend funded early learning and build that system of school-age childcare. We will continue to work with the SCMA, other sector representatives and statutory bodies to address the issues that affect recruitment and retention, including by reducing administrative burdens.

Will the member take an intervention?

Before I begin, I would really love to know how many seconds of time in the debate have been wasted discussing the amount of time in the debate, rather than the subject itself—[Interruption.]—so I encourage members to focus on the debate at hand. [Interruption.]

I repeat my thanks for the lead committee’s report on the general principles of this important bill, and for the diligent scrutiny by other committees. My hope is that the Scottish Government’s response, which was published earlier this week, reflects the spirit in which we will continue to develop and debate these important reforms.

I also thank members for the questions and points that they have raised in the debate today. I will take away those thoughts and give them serious and sincere consideration. However, I am disappointed by the use of the term “bad law” to describe the bill, because, as far as I am concerned, that is not what the young people and the key stakeholders whom I have been talking to are saying. [Interruption.]

The Scottish Government will work right across the relevant sectors throughout the period before stage 2 to determine whether and where the bill can be improved. Despite the concerns and questions that have been expressed here today, I am heartened by members’ approach to the issues and I am further encouraged by the broad consensus on the underlying reach of the bill.

The bill’s policy objectives and the direction of travel that it sets are the right ones at this time. However, some concerns have rightly been raised today; I hope to address those. We have heard concerns about resourcing and readiness. I recognise the significant challenges that the sector currently faces, including recruitment and retention issues that are faced by social work services and Children’s Hearings Scotland. We absolutely have to ensure capacity building and system readiness, which will be key. That is exactly why we have convened a national multi-agency implementation group, which had its inception meeting on 5 June and has more meetings scheduled right into the autumn.

Concerns have also been expressed about the financial memorandum. I have been clear that there is a need to provide more information to Parliament at later stages of the bill. We are therefore working with key partners.